2,000 Greater & Lesser Mysteries/2,000 Greater and Lesser Mysteries.iso/ufo/aav/mys02118.txt

Internet Message Format | 1994-06-10 | 833.2 KB

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From: [e-mail] (Graham Toal)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: KUTHUMI to the UN ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Oct 91 01:08:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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A bit of info.  The UFO hoax message played on south east radio in the UK
several years ago -- I met the guy who did it and heard his original
tapes and the off-air tapes.  he was an ex-BBC technician and his friends
& he were all blasted when they did it...

G
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From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: "joining" MUFON (attn: Don Allen)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 18:11:36 GMT
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I tried sending mail to Don Allen about this, but couldn't get it to go
through, and then I figured that other people might be interested in this
also:

How does one join/subscribe to/whatever MUFON? I enjoy the postings you put
out here on a.a.v (lots less noise, and I don't recall seeing *any*
channelled messages :-). If you could e-mail me or post to this newsgroup,
I'd be most appreciative. Thanks!

Craig

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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 01:53:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15950 alt.paranormal:3280 alt.alien.visitors:2302 talk.religion.newage:7083

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Barry Merriman confesses
>
>Well if a person is divinly inspired they don t get sick,  so guess who would
>be out of business, non other but the AMA.  So I am sure the churches, govt.,
>schools, and the AMA are proud of you, you are a shining example of their work.
>BTW did you take a pay off to write that?   I wonder how many times you have
>been burned at the stake?  Would you be interested in doing some past life
>work with me and find out?
>
>
>Don Showen

God I love it when you get sarcastic :-)

Just rememeber..the flak is usually the heaviest right over the target!

Don

ps...do you suppose any of these wannabe-randi's have ever read any of
Wendelle's books on the Pleiadians, or ever seen the Stevens/Elders
"Contact" video?

"research...duh...whats dat?"

Yuk yuk yuk (BIG GRIN)




--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Cosmic Archeology (was Hoagland's Face on Mars)
Keywords: Mars Mitochodrial DNA tetrahedral pyramid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Oct 91 18:58:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Harris) writes:
>A possible Mitochondrial DNA theory on the origin of mankind:
>    Humans appeared spontaneously on the Earth 220,000 years ago due
>    to a genetic experiment by aliens (Martians perhaps) to preserve
>    their race.  As there is no reason to believe that the biological
>    structure of these aliens could support their existence in the
>    Earth's environment, it may have been necessary to "splice" or
>    "engineer" already existing animal genes on the earth to produce
>    a favorable result.

Hmm, H.S. V1.1 with special Earth-adapter mitochondria installed at no extra
charge?              ;^)

I believe mitochondria are not unique to Homo Sapiens, however.

>    Are there any clearly defined and plausible theories as to how
>    the Eqyptian's could have built the Great Pyramid?  I have seen
>    exactly 0.

The best theory I have seen suggested that the material was actually a form
of concrete, which was poured in place into forms that were built on-site.
This would explain the tight fit of the blocks.

--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__
  Warren   v\ *|
             V
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From: [e-mail] (dhaley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Oct 91 02:07:03 GMT
Organization: University of New England, Armidale, Australia
Lines: 4

Does anyone out there have any information on this? I would like to know the
date that it occured and any evidence there is that it was a space ship. All
I know is that a large cylindrical metal object disintegrated in an Atomic
explosion above Siberia, some forty odd years before we got nuclear technology.
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Event 9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Oct 91 15:50:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 8

Cool!  A multi-media article!  (That's a uuencoded .GIF file, in case
anyone didn't know.)

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: GREYS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Oct 91 16:48:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
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A grey is a humanoid alien (sort of -- some people say they remind them of
praying mantises) about four feet tall with grey skin.    They're the kind
that allegedly abduct people, build underground bases, etc.  They're said
to come from Zeta Reticuli.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The West NY Sightings (part ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Oct 91 00:50:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 71

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>West NY UFO parts 1 & 2
>The `Westchester Wing' Theory

First, let me say that between switching newsfeeds and the old feed having
a serious lag from time to time, I missed the article which the article
quoted here is responding to.

Second, I thought the area in question was Eastern New York.  Or are you
just using "West" as an abbreviation for "West Chester"?

>All was going well until ...SPECULATION.
>Then came all the bullshit! - Sorry unfounded speculation. Why do people have to
>destroy all their hard work with such biased "guessing'?
>
>There was no mention of anything that could not be explained by (say) one or
>more helicopters suspending a giant wing-shaped balloon with navigation lights
>on it with a very long wire. "It seemed very thin" and the author had been
>temporarily fooled by a formation fly-over by aircraft.

I don't know who "the author" is (it sounds like Phil Imbrogno, because
he's the only person I can think of who has written anything major about
the case, but it doesn't sound like his book _Night Seige_ for reasons
we'll come to) so I can't comment on "all the bullshit".

I will have to re-read _Night Seige_ to see if there are any reports that
defy conventional explanation.    However, it seems to me that if there were
none, someone would've mentioned it before.

>Theory 1: They may have been testing the radar effects of the stealth bomber
>wing. And witnesses reported helicopters - dark blue ones, military style.

But why would they test such a thing over a heavily-populated area?  Why
not in the desert somewhere?

>Theory 2: They may have been advertising the tv show V, as suggested. It was
>over an affluent population and the owner of the helicopter was from California -
>(Hollywood?). Remember Orson Wells' War of the Worlds!

I don't remember this being in _Night Seige_ (the suggestion that it was a
"V" ad, or the helicopter being traced to California), so would someone
please tell me what's being referred to?  (If my recall of _Night Seige_ is
faulty, please tell me that also.)

Anyway, if it were an ad for "V", I would expect that someone would've
admitted it by now.

>I could go on but what is the point. The author speculated that anti-aircraft
>missiles were destroyed, guidance systems knocked out, interceptors lost, radar
>jammed, a superior culture was responsible, an alien UFO agency, visitors, or
>groups of visitors, unconsious telepathy, psychic interaction(!?), lights saying
>"hello", nuclear weapons storage surveillance, aliens serving a purpose -
>reinforcing UFO reality, a superior culture which will not allow nuclear
>conflict.
> >Phew....:-)......He forgot abductees, implants and missing time. >
No doubt these will be found in the near future. >AFTER ALL, WHY LET A FEW
FACTS SPOIL A GOOD STORY / INCOME.

(oops, sorry for screwing up the quoting there)

I've seen a couple of files by Phil Imbrogno, distributed on ParaNet and
Compuserve, in which he writes about effects on nuclear facilities.  He
*also* does have missing time cases -- in fact, he mentioned *one* missing
time case in _Night Seige_ after saying that the original idea was to leave
it out so as not to appear too sensational!

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!tigger!schiffd
From: [e-mail] (David M. Schiff)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Oct 91 06:46:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Planet)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (dhaley) writes:
>Does anyone out there have any information on this? I would like to know the
>date that it occured and any evidence there is that it was a space ship. All
>I know is that a large cylindrical metal object disintegrated in an Atomic
>explosion above Siberia, some forty odd years before we got nuclear technology.

Could you be referring to the Tunguska (sp?) fall?
I remember hearing something about this many years ago.
As I recall, the trees were all sort of blasted over at the center of
an incredibly powerful explosion but little if any physical remains
were found. I think there were stories about cows, horses, etc.
being knocked over very far away (many tens of miles if not a 100
or more).

This was a topic of some debate concerning what could have caused it
and there were some really wild ideas circulating.  Apparently it
was not believed to have been caused by a simple meteorite.
I think the most widely accepted explanation was that it was a comet.
This would probably be a good question for sci.astro.

This may not be the incident you're referring to since an exploding comet
could hardly be mistaken for a large cylindrical metal object.

If the explosion occurred forty years before we obtained nuclear
technology how can you be sure it was nuclear?
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From: [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 16:30:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Warren) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap) writes:
>>    I am intrigued by the psychlogy of this Mar's face story
>>    as much as anything. I first heard about it on the "For
>>    the People" show on shortwave (WWCR) - and am equally
>>    intrigued by their psychological profiles.
>
>Is it possible that certain groups of people have decided that the only way
>for the nations of the world to drop their antagonisms toward one another
>is if their xenophobia is refocused outwards from our planet?  I am not
>necessarilly suggesting a conspiracy - perhaps something less threatening -
>a convergence of opinion by many pragmatists around the world, who hold on
>to their power rather tenuously when the world is threatening to blow itself
>up.

    Well, it worked in 'Watchmen', but only because Alan Moore wanted it
too. Oddly enough, regions with competing cultures don't always unite to
drive the invaders out. A few regions who got conquered by outsiders playing
divide and conquer are:

    Ireland
    Scotland
    India
    The Americas
    Africa

    It's very tempting to go for the short term advantage of getting
new allies. This is less of a problem if the invaders don't exist, of
course :)

                                James Nicoll
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From: [e-mail] (SYSTEM 0PERATOR)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: High-tech artifacts near Ogden?
Keywords: High-tech artifacts near Ogden?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Oct 91 03:05:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: NMS&Systems Engineering, Nashua, NH
Lines: 28
Xref: ns-mx sci.archaeology:871 sci.skeptic:15975 alt.alien.visitors:2310

[e-mail] (David Jones) writes:

> Re: <[e-mail]>
>
> > Hello everyone.  We have just heard about an object found approximately
> > 640 feet under the earth while excavating for room to store radioactive
> > waste.  The object is from 25 to 40 feet in height and there are
> > apparently 9 of them in a row on a north-south line.  There are photos
> > of it which I have yet to see, but OMNI and several other news services
> > are doing their damndest to get the photos and/or more info.  The site
> > is around Ogden, UTAH, so if anyone there knows about such an
>
> -------------------
>   David W. Jones
>   [e-mail] OR
>   uunet!wrs!davidj
> -------------------

I would also like to be added to that response list.. Sounds interesting
indeed.

-djk


---
Daniel J. Karnes / WA6NDT - POB 7007, Nashua NH USA 03060-7007
[e-mail]  ...!DecVax!Mv!CtEdge!Djk  [e-mail]
The Cutting Edge: [phone] V.32 24 hrs. 'for TRUE hackers'
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Info: Meessen - Belgian Ufo Sightings 1989-90 Part1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Oct 91 19:58:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
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 > The Hudson Valley sightings from the mid 80's have a similar look and
 > feel
 > to the Belgium sightings. The craft sighted were similar (boomerang
 > shapes,
 > large slow-moving craft) and the debunkings were also similar
 > (ultralights,
 > stealth secrets). You may want to take a look at the Hudson Valley
 > sightings.

Yes.  Strikingly similar.  However, in Belgium the civilian scientific
community has the cooperation of the Belgian Air Force.  Big precedence!
I would like to see that kind of cooperation here in the United States, but
not until we get more seriously down to business.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: "joining" Mufon (attn: Don Allen)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Oct 91 20:03:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
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 > How does one join/subscribe to/whatever MUFON? I enjoy the postings you
 > put
 > out here on a.a.v (lots less noise, and I don't recall seeing *any*
 > channelled messages :-). If you could e-mail me or post to this
 > newsgroup,
 > I'd be most appreciative. Thanks!

I would investigate more about this.  Several of their state directors known
to me are channelers or contactees.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Photographic Evidence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Oct 91 19:54:00 GMT
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 > The newsgroup represents whatever the users want it to represent.
 >
 > You're right in that there's a very vocal group of people who believe in
 > spiritual beings from the Pleiades.  There's a second very vocal group
 > who
 > believe in small grey aliens from Zeta Reticuli who have a treaty with
 > the
 > U.S. government and secret bases scattered throughout the southwest.
 > Then
 > there's a third group who don't know what the hell is going on, but get
 > quite a bit of entertainment from those who think they do.

Don't forget the fourth...Those who wish that the rest of them would wake up
and smell the coffee and treat this subject seriously and scientifically.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!drwho
From: [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Oct 91 16:59:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 27
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15983 alt.paranormal:3289 alt.alien.visitors:2315 talk.religion.newage:7093

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jacques Guy) writes:
>
> I have nephews and nieces (courtesy of my cousins and siblings).
>And I am not -- repeat NOT -- descended from them (would you believe?)
>And if there are no Anita's and Jean-Luc's et al. in my ancestry, there cannot
>possibly be anything Anita-like and Jean-Luc-like about me. Uh? Come again?

There is no Anita portion of your brain stem, in the sense that Anita did not
contribute to the physical makeup of your brain.  There cannot be a reptilian
portion of my brain stem, because no reptiles were involved in the physical
makeup of my brain.

I don't even have a part of my brother in me, even though we are very alike in
many ways.  Of course much of our DNA is the same, but that's a part of
our parents in each of us, not a part of him in me or me in him.

So, I guess the question is, what other way is there of acquiring a reptilian
brain stem, if not descent from reptiles?

>No-one said we were descended from reptiles

Then HOW ELSE would we acquire a reptilian brain stem???

--E.V.L. ([e-mail])        #
Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely    #
devastatingly true, except the bits #
that are lies."  --Douglas Adams    #
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From: [e-mail] (Mark Francis Stramaglia)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pregnant Russian Spacewomen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Oct 91 19:43:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Senior, Art, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 18
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

...Has any one heard anything about these Russian women that
...all came back pregnant after a space flight?  The article
...was in some type of paper (like the Inquirer)---which I
...don't put much stock in.

Kathy-

You should not be so quick to criticize such news papers as the Inquirer
or  Weekly World News (which you did not mention). These news sources
publish articles to discredit themselves so that the conspiracy does not
think to censor any of their true (and often very alarming) articles. If
you can learn to "read between the lines" then you will find these
newspapers to be a much more reliable source of information than the
popular and "respected" journals (such as the New York Times and -worst
of all- USA Today) which are owned and controled by the conspiracy, and
which practice a policy of disinformation.

-Mark F. Stramaglia
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <1991Oct6.191302.9403@anasaz>
Date: 6 Oct 91 19:13:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (dhaley) writes:
]>Does anyone out there have any information on this? I would like to know the
]>date that it occured and any evidence there is that it was a space ship. All
]>I know is that a large cylindrical metal object disintegrated in an Atomic
]>explosion above Siberia, some forty odd years before we got nuclear technology.
Well, there was a huge explosion but nobody knows that it was a "large
cylindrical metal object", that it disintegrated or that it was atomic.

The effects can still be observed today and a strong case can be made that
the cause was "explosive" as opposed to impact of a meteor or comet
fragment. However, there are good coment/meteor theories too.


--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!tulane!uflorida!neur0mancer
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pregnant Russian Spacewomen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Oct 91 23:39:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: neur0mancer
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Lines: 27
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark Francis Stramaglia) writes...
>> [pregnant cosmonauts]

>Kathy-

>You should not be so quick to criticize such news papers as the Inquirer
>or  Weekly World News (which you did not mention). These news sources
>publish articles to discredit themselves so that the conspiracy does not
>think to censor any of their true (and often very alarming) articles. If
>you can learn to "read between the lines" then you will find these
>newspapers to be a much more reliable source of information than the
>popular and "respected" journals (such as the New York Times and -worst
>of all- USA Today) which are owned and controled by the conspiracy, and
>which practice a policy of disinformation.

>-Mark F. Stramaglia

I completly agreE!!
The CONSPiracy has had ahold of the news media for TOO long!!!  How else can
we find out the truth About things other than the WWN?!!!!

YOu would think thast when people saw the horse with the face of a *man* on th
cover that they would WAKE up... But they DOnt!!!

Can you see nbc (National broadcasting conspiracy) running this story??!!?
I think nnot!!!  The truth is Just TOO shocking !?!!!!!
So the only way we can find out things is to read!!!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!medici!jbm
From: [e-mail] (Jacques Guy)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 00:07:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15993 alt.paranormal:3292 alt.alien.visitors:2319 talk.religion.newage:7097




>>No-one said we were descended from reptiles

> Then HOW ELSE would we acquire a reptilian brain stem???

1. By being descended from a common ancestor,
2. by convergent evolution.

Sorry, I was about to forget:

3. By basking in the sun (or rather, if it was 6000 years ago, Saturn, see
   talk.origins) in the proximity of the Great Pyramid.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!convex.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 03:08:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1991Oct6.191302.9403@anasaz>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 26

In article <1991Oct6.191302.9403@anasaz> billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes:
>]>I know is that a large cylindrical metal object disintegrated in an Atomic
>]>explosion above Siberia, some forty odd years before we got nuclear technology.
>Well, there was a huge explosion but nobody knows that it was a "large
>cylindrical metal object", that it disintegrated or that it was atomic.
>
>The effects can still be observed today and a strong case can be made that
>the cause was "explosive" as opposed to impact of a meteor or comet
>fragment. However, there are good coment/meteor theories too.

No one knows what it looked like, because no one saw it.  The impact
area was uninhabited, expeditions to the site didn't get out there
until some years later.

Another theory (I think in Science News), is that it was a small
quantum black hole.  These are black holes created about the time of
the Big Bang, and can be of substellar mass.  Such a black hole could
range from mere atoms of mass up to any size.  As it happens, black
holes this small tend to evaporate, smaller ones evaporating faster.
So there is a lower limit on the size of the black hole.  It still
could be of a mass of a planetoid and still be quite small, about
subatomic diameters.  If it was a black hole, it would have passed
right through the Earth, and out the other side.  Presumably, it's
velocity was low enough that it wasn't captured.
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <1991Oct7.021606.16967@anasaz>
Date: 7 Oct 91 02:16:06 GMT
References: <1991Oct6.233812.15085@anasaz>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 33

In article <1991Oct6.233812.15085@anasaz> john@anasaz (John Moore) writes:
i]>Keywords:
]>
]>In article <1991Oct6.191302.9403@anasaz> billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes:
]>]The effects can still be observed today and a strong case can be made that
]>]the cause was "explosive" as opposed to impact of a meteor or comet
]>]fragment. However, there are good coment/meteor theories too.
]>
]>I agree that the evidence shows no impact crater. However, a comet
]>entering the atmosphere could have released the explosive energy -
]>when you suddnely raise hundreds of tons of water to thousands of
]>degrees of temperature, and the whole affair is travelling at 25000
]>miles per hour, you can get one heck of a bang.
]>
]>There was also no evidence of a radioactive event.
]>--
]>John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)
]>ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john [e-mail] anasaz![e-mail]
]>"It would be thought a hard government that should tax its people one tenth
]>part..." B. Franklin   - Standard Disclaimer Applies -
]> - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - -

Well, yours was one of the valid "comet/meteor theories" I was talking about.
But, so far, all the falling things we know about left craters.  OK, so it
could have exploded but to totally vaporize so that no piece was left to
leave even a small crater is a little hard to accept.

Has anyone ever thought that this might have been the first attempt by our
space brothers to make a crop circle only it didn't go too well?
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!husc-news.harvard.edu!husc9.harvard.edu!ford
From: [e-mail] (Liam Ford)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Harvard Crimson UFO article
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 08:47:46 GMT
Lines: 29
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16004 alt.paranormal:3296 alt.alien.visitors:2322 talk.religion.newage:7102
Nntp-Posting-Host: husc9.harvard.edu

Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: Harvard University Science Center
Keywords: Asking for Information

-----------A Request for Information---------------------

My roommate is one of the editors of the What Is To Be Done, the
Harvard Crimson's weekly magazine.  One of his writers is currently
working on an article about UFOs and those who are interested in
discerning whether life exists on other planets and whether aliens
have visited the earth.
Anyone who might be able to tell the writer [Eryn Brown] anything
useful should call The Crimson at [617] 495-9666 and ask to speak
to her, Steve Newman [my roommate], Rebecca Jescke, or Liza Valasquez.
If none of them are at The Crimson, please leave your name and number and
a time that you can be reached, as well as the name of any UFO
organization with which you might be involved.

Please respond promptly, as Eryn's deadline is Saturday, Oct. 10.

Thanks.

/./.  Liam T. A. Ford        [e-mail]
"I didn't come here to play guessing games."--Humbert Humbert in
                        Lolita [the movie]

>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!kannel!Janne.Anttila
From: [e-mail] (Janne Anttila)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 13:29:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1991Oct6.191302.9403@anasaz>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Janne Anttila)
Organization: The Student Union of Lappeenranta U of Tech, Finland
Lines: 16
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 7 Oct 91 03:08:19 GMT
Disclaimer: Homer panee: Bart!, min{ panen: Yo!

>>>>> On 7 Oct 91 03:08:19 GMT, [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber) said:

Anthony> No one knows what it looked like, because no one saw it.  The impact
Anthony> area was uninhabited, expeditions to the site didn't get out there
Anthony> until some years later.

To my knowledge there were many sightings of a fireball at least in
Siberia and China. A thundering noise was also reported.


--
                    _________________________________________________
  Janne Anttila    /> ...mutta Saturnuksesta l{hestyy taivaanlaiva. />
                  />   Veljet, meid{n on syyt{ olla varuillamme,   />
  [{ni ylh{{lt{  />  sill{ Saturnuksen miehet eiv{t tunne armoa.  />
_________________________________________________________________/>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!ucsd!network.ucsd.edu!alex!spl
From: [e-mail] (Steve Lamont)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Previous Lives
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 13:23:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News System)
Organization: University of Calif. San Diego Microscope and Imaging Resource
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Nntp-Posting-Host: alex.ucsd.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Barrington King) writes:
>After considerable study, I have discovered that Cleopatra has been
>reincarnated into the twentieth century over seventeen times.  It must
>really be her period.

... well, every 28 millennia she does get a mite irritable.

                        spl (the p stands for
                        Pre-Millennial Syndrome)
--
Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- [phone] -- [e-mail]
UCSD Microscopy and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608
"Water for people, not landscaping"
                       - Bumper sticker seen in Southern California
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re:  The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 14:59:20 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2325 alt.paranormal:3298 sci.skeptic:16014 talk.religion.newage:7105


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Babb) writes:
>I hate to be a skeptic ;-), but has anyone mentioned that the Pleiadians claim
>to be from a star system whose age is measured in thousands of years (well,
>tens of thousands, maybe) while we lesser-advanced beings have taken millions
>of years to evolve to our current level?  Perhaps living on plasma planets
>is more conducive to rapid intellectual evolution?

Wrong!  The Pleadies  Star  Cluster  albeit  young  is  on  the  order of
        millions of years old.  If you would like I will find out exactly
        how old and post it here.

        Steve
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gravity Propulsion ??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 15:09:34 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 18


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (The Technicolour Throw-up) writes...
>There is a slight detail which Lazar seems to have overlooked - gravity
>waves travel at the speed of light.  You may very well be able to "snap"
>from A to B near instantaneously after having "pulled" B towards A but the
>gravity waves travelling from A to B in order to set up this "space warp"
>will only travel at the speed of light and hence you spend a lot of time
>waiting around for the gravity waves to get to B.  If B is 1 light year away
>then I am going to have to wait 1 year before the "warp" is even set up.
>Result: no faster than light travel by this method.


        Minor detail  here.    The Gravity waves from that distant object
        are already here and  what  may  be  happening  is  that when you
        focus on the object you  are  just focusing on the gravity waves
        that are already here.

        Steve
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!nastar!phardie
From: [e-mail] (Pete Hardie)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Previous Lives
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 14:14:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA
Lines: 13
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:7107 sci.skeptic:16016 alt.alien.visitors:2327 alt.paranormal:3300 alt.slack:1402

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Barrington King) writes:
>After considerable study, I have discovered that Cleopatra has been
>reincarnated into the twentieth century over seventeen times.  It must
>really be her period.

Not to mention the 3 simutaneous incarnations of Rhiannon I've seen claimed
in the local psychic classified ads.



--
Pete Hardie                             ...!emory!nastar!phardie
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc.      (voice) [phone]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!exnet.iastate.edu!i1neal
From: [e-mail] (Neal Rauhauser -- )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pregnant Russian Spacewomen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 12:52:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Neal Rauhauser -- )
Organization: Iowa State University Extension
Lines: 71

In article <[e-mail]> neur0mancer writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark Francis Stramaglia) writes...
>>> [pregnant cosmonauts]
>
>>Kathy-
>
>>You should not be so quick to criticize such news papers as the Inquirer
>>or  Weekly World News (which you did not mention). These news sources
>>publish articles to discredit themselves so that the conspiracy does not
>>think to censor any of their true (and often very alarming) articles. If
>>you can learn to "read between the lines" then you will find these
>>newspapers to be a much more reliable source of information than the
>>popular and "respected" journals (such as the New York Times and -worst
>>of all- USA Today) which are owned and controled by the conspiracy, and
>>which practice a policy of disinformation.
>
>>-Mark F. Stramaglia
>
>I completly agreE!!
>The CONSPiracy has had ahold of the news media for TOO long!!!  How else can
>we find out the truth About things other than the WWN?!!!!
>
>YOu would think thast when people saw the horse with the face of a *man* on th
>cover that they would WAKE up... But they DOnt!!!
>
>Can you see nbc (National broadcasting conspiracy) running this story??!!?
>I think nnot!!!  The truth is Just TOO shocking !?!!!!!
>So the only way we can find out things is to read!!!


         Ever notice how these horses with the faces of men are


        1. recently deceased and cremated

        2. in a small village in lower slobovia that you'll
           never visit

        3. shown in a grainy B+W photo you can never really
           check out to closely



      Here are a list of things to consider before you start building bomb
shelters to hide from little green men:



        1. Is the U.S., at high levels, really moving to make
           North/South America one economic unit? Consider
           the current minimum wage situation ...


        2. Some new agers think (though this is not voiced) that
           everyone must believe as they do for their
           'transformation' to take place - I know christians
           that are ready to turn survivalist over this one.


    Well, thats enough gloom and depression, anyone got any _real_
space aliens they'd like to share? I'm having a kegger this weekend
and could use a good crowd draw like that :-)




--
   Neal   [e-mail]
"If I had a nickel for every advertisement I've read claiming that some
MuSh-DOS utility would 'shatter' the 640k barrier ... I'd buy a brand
new Macintosh ][si :-)" - Me
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!tulane!ukma!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!sf1u+
From: [e-mail] (Steve Andrew Fink)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 16:05:49 GMT
References: <1991Oct6.233812.15085@anasaz>
    <1991Oct7.021606.16967@anasaz>
Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 6
In-Reply-To: <1991Oct7.021606.16967@anasaz>

>Has anyone ever thought that this might have been the first attempt by our
>space brothers to make a crop circle only it didn't go too well?
If I made it, I would consider it a great success.


"Life is too important to be taken seriously."  <Oscar Wilde>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!hollie.rdg.dec.com!decvax.dec.com!abyss.zk3.dec.com!kenton
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Kenton OSG/UEG)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wheat Circles and Confessors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 18:30:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Jeff Kenton OSG/UEG)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - Nashua, NH
Lines: 13
Nntp-Posting-Host: abyss.zk3.dec.com

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|>
|> Also, there was a circle found not long ago in Kissena Park,
|> which is a run-down lot in Flushing, Queens.
|>

I grew up near Kissena Park.  Never saw any aliens there.  Lots
of huge mosquitos, though.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
==    jeff kenton        Consulting at [e-mail]        ==
==    [phone]            [phone]               ==
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!exnet.iastate.edu!i1neal
From: [e-mail] (Neal Rauhauser -- )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 20:14:59 GMT
References: <1991Oct6.233812.15085@anasaz> <1991Oct7.021606.16967@anasaz>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Neal Rauhauser -- )
Organization: Iowa State University Extension
Lines: 17

>Well, yours was one of the valid "comet/meteor theories" I was talking about.
>But, so far, all the falling things we know about left craters.  OK, so it
>could have exploded but to totally vaporize so that no piece was left to
>leave even a small crater is a little hard to accept.


       There was an incident in the early 1900s about 10 miles from where
I grew up - a meteor of ~= 50kg reentered and broke up before impact.
A lot of little pieces, similar to the tektites found in the Tunguska region
have been found (people make rings out of 'em :-))


--
   Neal   [e-mail]
 "A poor fool indeed is he who adopts a manner of thinking (meant) for others!"
   - Donatien-Alphonse-Francois de Sade
"When I use V.M.S., I feel as if I am bothering it." - Me
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!van-bc!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gravity Propulsion ??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 19:34:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 62

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (The Technicolour Throw-up) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
|> (Leonard Spani) writes:
|>
|> > - one method of propulsion was to focus the gravity waves at a distant
|> >   point in space and "pull" that point towards the ship together by
|> >   bending space. When the gravity was turned off, space would "snap" back
|> >   into position and the ship would be in the new position. A new position
|> >   that may be very, very far from the original position.
|> > - Lazar claimed that ships using this drive mechanism could travel *much*
|> >   faster than the speed of light. (Although technically they wouldn't
|> >   actually *travel* from A to B, they would instantaneously "snap" from A
|> >   to B and their effective speed (distance/time) would be many times the
|> >   speed of light.)
|>
|> There is a slight detail which Lazar seems to have overlooked - gravity
|> waves travel at the speed of light.  You may very well be able to "snap"
|> from A to B near instantaneously after having "pulled" B towards A but the
|> gravity waves travelling from A to B in order to set up this "space warp"
|> will only travel at the speed of light and hence you spend a lot of time
|> waiting around for the gravity waves to get to B.  If B is 1 light year away
|> then I am going to have to wait 1 year before the "warp" is even set up.
|> Result: no faster than light travel by this method.
|>
|> --
|> Just my two rubber ningis worth.
|> Name: Michael Chisnall        email: [e-mail]


A few months back there was a thread in sci.physics (sci.space?) concerning
gravity. Some people claimed that gravity "propagated" at the speed of
light and some claimed that it was "instantaneous". Others claimed that
we don't know yet. The question was never resolved to my satisfaction.

I remember someone mentioning that the Earth is attracted to the Sun's
*actual* position in space rather than the Sun's *apparent* position,
which is ~8.5 light-minutes behind.

I won't cross-post this question to sci.physics because they would probably
go beet red seeing an old battered thread coming back to haunt them, but
if there are any physicists here in alt.alien.visitors or if any of you
have friends who are physicists, please respond.

Please hold off on the flames if this seems an incredibly stupid thing
to ask. I had always assumed that gravity traveled at 'c' until the thread
in sci.physics made me question it. As far as I *know* the "speed of gravity"
has never been experimentally determined.


If anyone does manage to nail down a physicist for a while, ask about the
other Lazar material. Someone with a background in experimental or theoretical physics should give Lazar's claims a careful analysis.



Leonard.


--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail] |       \\?!//         | t                    |
***********************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!drwho
From: [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 20:14:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 32
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16044 alt.paranormal:3305 alt.alien.visitors:2333 talk.religion.newage:7116

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jacques Guy) writes:
>
>>>No-one said we were descended from reptiles
>
>> Then HOW ELSE would we acquire a reptilian brain stem???
>
>1. By being descended from a common ancestor,

I agree that this can be true (in fact, I think that this IS true), but that
doesn't make the brain stem "reptilian".  You might as well call a reptile's
brain stem "mammalian".

>2. by convergent evolution.

Once again, this doesn't make it "reptilian".

The original poster was talking
about alien reptiles from the 8th dimension or something, and then says that
part of our brain is reptilian.  Seems to me he was implying a deeper
connection;  that reptiles had some part in developing our brain.

>Sorry, I was about to forget:
>
>3. By basking in the sun (or rather, if it was 6000 years ago, Saturn, see
>   talk.origins) in the proximity of the Great Pyramid.

Hey... you're right!  That *would* work, wouldn't it? :-)

--E.V.L. ([e-mail])        # But what I *really* want is to direct.
Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely    #
devastatingly true, except the bits #
that are lies."  --Douglas Adams    #
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar!felix!haynes
From: [e-mail] (99700000)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Previous Lives
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 23:34:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Barrington King) writes:
>After considerable study, I have discovered that Cleopatra has been
>reincarnated into the twentieth century over seventeen times.  It must
>really be her period.

Did you include Mehitabel the cat, in the archy and mehitabel stories by
Don Marquis?
--
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

"Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an Art."
        Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uvaarpa!murdoch!fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU!jes2x
From: [e-mail] (John Eaton Sommerville)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.space
Subject: Re: "ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE" (an old posting)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Oct 91 19:21:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 3
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2335 sci.space:22452

If anyone has this "Aliens from Outer Space" file, I would like a copy
as well.
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!medici!jbm
From: [e-mail] (Jacques Guy)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 23:27:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
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>I agree that this can be true (in fact, I think that this IS true), but
>that doesn't make the brain stem "reptilian".  You might as well call a
>reptile's brain stem "mammalian".

Right. So it was only a quarrel of words. Think: "reptilian" was coined originally to label
animals that *crawled* on their bellies. Then applied to bipedal dinosaurians, and *flying*
pterosaurs of all things! That you call your backside an ass doesn't mean that it's because
you sit on
a pair of long ears.

>The original poster was talking about alien reptiles from the 8th
>dimension or something, and then says that part of our brain is
>reptilian.  *Seems to me he was implying a deeper connection*;  that
>reptiles had some part in developing our brain.

Well *that* wouldn't surprise me, *that* = a nut implying deep connections on the strength on
a false analogy. Have you ever worn a Mickey Mouse
hat? Yes? So mice had some part in developing Walt Disney. QED.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!porthos.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 02:50:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 73
Cc: mcgrew

I got  this from "The Encyclopedia of UFO's", Ronald Story, ed.

   June 30, 1908, shortly after 7am observers at the Central Siberian
Plateau near the Stony Tunuska River first saw a "ball of fire" coming
over the southern horizon heading almost due north.  Suddenly a
"pillar of fire" short upward into the sky, which could be seen for
several hundred miles.  Enourmous black clouds rose 12 miles into the
air, followed by a "black rain".  On the following day, strange
glowing clouds could be seen, at extremely high altitudes over Asia
and Europe.

   Various explainations for the explosion, which devastated several
hundred square miles of (furtunately unpopulated) pine forest have
been put forward.

    * The original one, that of a meteor, was shot down due to there
being no physical meteoric evidence to be found.

    * An alternative explaination was that of a comet entering the
atmosphere and then violently vaporizing due to the increased heat.
(The EoU calls this "the accepted, conservative view").  Since coments
haven't been observed striking the earth before (or since) this event,
it remains a possibility.

    * In 1947, the "spaceship theory" was put forward, that a
spaceship's powerplant detonation had caused the devastation.
(Or, alternatively, that the aliens detonated a nuclear device
on purpose, for reasons of their own - I've even heard tell of
"the war of the aliens", and such.)

    * Although not mentioned in EoU, another theory surfaced in the
mid-1970's, that of a "mini-blackhole" (described by someone else in
an earlier message), that actually passed through the earth.
Unfortunately, no effects on the far side of the earth (waterspouts,
or whatever) were witnessed (to my knowledge), so there's no extra
evidence for this one.

   The EoU goes on in some detail, I'll just hit the high points:

 Points against the "spaceship" theory:
    * The fireball was far too brief, in comparison with what we
      know now about nuclear explosions, to be one.
    * approach trajectory of the object has been determined
      to be head-on with earth, which isn't really a great
      idea to do with a spaceship, so it seems unlikely that
      any self-respecting alien would do so.
    * there is no increase in carbon-14 in tree-rings that would
      account for a nuclear explosion in 1908 (this was asserted
      by William Libby, the 'father of the carbon-14 test', in
      1976).
    * The recollections of witnesses was 20 years old before
      it was obtained by researchers.
    * spectrographic analysis (by astronomers) in 1908 showed
      that the "glowing cloud" was just dust, reflecting sunlight.
    * There had been a forest fire in 1888 in the same region,
      which accounts for descriptions of "rapid growth" in plants
      after the explosion; rather than being radiation-related,
      it was just due to nutrient-enhancement that happens to
      soil after a forest fire (and that the regions of
      "rapid growth" were in the areas of forest-fire, and not
      in other areas.)

... there's more, discussing further problems with "meteor" and
"comet" theories, but this is a.a.v, and besides, you should find
this book for yourself - try the library...

   I'll end with last line from the entry: "Whatever the actual
cause of the Tunguska event, it has maintained a powerful grip
on the popular imagination."

Hope this helps,

Charles
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: UFO Conference Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 00:34:01 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 18
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2338 sci.skeptic:16072


          This information has been posted by Don Showen  for John Winston.
     One of the speakers I video taped in the Phoenix UFO Conference was
William Hamilton.  He had a lot to say about the underground experimental
bases that are located around Palmdale and Tehachapi, Calif, where some of our
major aircraft companies are working with  aliens to produce space craft.
They are so bold as to fly a boomerang shaped space craft right over downtown
Palmdale. There is a rumor that our government is planning to release this
information to the public.  I thought this sounded like what I had heard
before.  They will tell us about it , sure when pigs fly.
     Well folks it s happened, there are now reports of flying pigs over North
America and Canada.  They are UFP s, Unidentified Flying Pigs.  So the next
time I go to investigate the weird and  unexplained I may come home  with the
bacon.
     I have no saying for today.
     Don is posting this through his account for me.  I am not Don, and Don is
not me.
     John.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Alien Visitor
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 00:56:05 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2339 sci.skeptic:16073


     Back in the 1970 s I was a civilian electronics instructor at Treasure
Island, calif.  While passing out some books about UFO s to some of my
students  before going to classes a fellow instructor heard  what I was saying
to my students.
    Later that night he was working at a second job fixing a lady;s T.V. set
and told her what I has been saying and how stupid he thought I was.  She then
told him that he shouldn t have made fun of what I was saying, it was the
truth and she was from Venus herself.   She had been brought here when she was
two years old and had been raised by Earth people.  He didn t believe her and
asked why she would come to Earth if she was from Venus.  She then said that
she  was brought here from Venus for the same reason that we sometimes send
our children go to Europe, it s for our education. She then informed him they
on Venus are more advanced than we are on Earth.  He then said  If your so far
advanced why don t you came down here and make slaves of us ?  Lady; We are
not interested in that.. We aren t allowed to interfere.
     He never did believe her so she nearly threw him out of the house.  The
teacher told me about his experience.
  I contacted the lady and she did stick with her original story.
    That s all for now.
  John.

     Don is posting this through his account for me.  I am not Don, and Don is
not me.      John.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 17:16:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (dhaley) writes:
>Does anyone out there have any information on this? I would like to know the
>date that it occured and any evidence there is that it was a space ship. All
>I know is that a large cylindrical metal object disintegrated in an Atomic
>explosion above Siberia, some forty odd years before we got nuclear technology.

I assume you're talking about the Tunguska event, but where on Earth did
you get the idea that it was a "cylindrical metal object"?  (The explosion
did resemble a nuclear explosion, but that doesn't mean it was.  But I
never heard it called a "cylindrical metal object" before!)

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!gtx!al
From: [e-mail] (Alan Filipski)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Oct 91 17:29:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Alan Filipski)
Organization: GTX Corporation, Phoenix
Lines: 21
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Sildem Gandy) writes:
>Try reading "The girl with blue eyes". I don't remember the author off-hand
>but this has a very interesting account of a girl regressed to a previous
>life.  She remembered a life when her name was "Lishus Faver". And "We took
>the gates".  Her father tried to find an historical record of this and event-
>ually found one of an Aloyisious LeFever who was famed for have taken the
>gates of a fort.  His daughter had no possibility of knowing this very
>obscure bit of history.

Why not? if this LeFever was so famous, maybe one of the girls teachers
or acquaintances knew about him and told her the story. Maybe she saw
an allusion to him in a book.  Please explain why she had "no
possibility of knowing" this, but her father did.  Did the father
discover information known to no one else?  How could he even know
that no one else had this information?


  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 ( Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 8836 N. 23rd Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona 85021, USA )
 ( {decvax,hplabs,uunet!amdahl,nsc}!sun!sunburn!gtx!al         [phone] )
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!ampex!russest
From: [e-mail] (Steve Russell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: WAS:Re: Pregnant Russian Spacewomen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 07:53:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Ampex Corporation, Redwood City CA
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> neur0mancer writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark Francis Stramaglia) writes...
>>> [pregnant cosmonauts]
>
>>Kathy-
>
>>>You should not be so quick to criticize such news papers as the Inquirer
>>>of all- USA Today) which are owned and controled by the conspiracy, and
>>which practice a policy of disinformation.
>>
>>>-Mark F. Stramaglia
>
>I completly agreE!!
>The CONSPiracy has had ahold of the news media for TOO long!!!  How else can
>we find out the truth About things other than the WWN?!!!!
>
>YOu would think thast when people saw the horse with the face of a *man* on th
>cover that they would WAKE up... But they DOnt!!!
>
>Can you see nbc (National broadcasting conspiracy) running this story??!!?
>I think nnot!!!  The truth is Just TOO shocking !?!!!!!
>So the only way we can find out things is to read!!!

Funny how most of the 'TOO shocking' news stories seem to occur in other
countries, far away from the usual herd of roving video reporters.

And don't you ever question the funning matting around those photo's in
the WWD, Inquirer, and such?

-steve
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.:
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 02:35:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 47
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:7135 alt.alien.visitors:2343 alt.paranormal:3313

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>>
>>      MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES
>>                of the
>>          Parapsychology Society Subcommittee
>>                United Nations
>>              New York, New York
>>               October 15, 1990
>>
>>Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma
>>Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich.
>>All rights reserved. This message may be copied for the sole purpose
>>of sharing it with others. No part of this message may be published,
>>printed, transmitted, stored in a retrieval system, or translated into
>>any other human language without the express permission of The Alpha
>>Connection, Inc., Suite 204, 7410 Montgomery Blvd., NE, Albuquerque,
>>NM 87109.
>
>Just one question:  if this is a message of great importance to the whole of
>mankind, why the copyright?  Copyrights are given to works of creativity.
>Surely Dr. Milanovich didn't make up... oooohhhhh!!!  Now I understand.  Sorry.
>

Could it possibly be that the author of the message might be aware of
the all-too human propensity for taking things out of context?

Sounds plausible to me. On the other hand, you _could_ be bold and
write Dr Milanovich and find out for certain :-)

I once asked Mike Corbin why ParaNet put copyrights on some of their
files..and he told me that it's to safeguard the material from being
altered by others who might claim that _they_ had written it and to
protect the integrity of the material. I didn't quite understand at
the time, but much later I saw the wisdom in such a policy and agree
that it's necessary. Perhaps, the purveyors of the Kuthumi (Koot Hoomi)
material felt the same way.

Don



--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!husc-news.harvard.edu!husc9.harvard.edu!ford
From: [e-mail] (Liam Ford)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Harvard Crimson UFO article
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 07:01:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Harvard University Science Center
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Nntp-Posting-Host: husc9.harvard.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Liam Ford) writes:
>

That's me and I made a mistake.

>
>Please respond promptly, as Eryn's deadline is Saturday, Oct. 10.
>
Eryn's deadline is Saturday, October _12th_.  You can call the Crimson
collect at [617] 495-9666.  If you do call, ask to speak to "an
editor of the What."  Or "Eryn Brown, who's doing the What scrutiny
for next week."

Again, thanks for your help.  Eryn thanks everyone in advance.

In addition, if anyone has any articles that might be a good overview of
issues relating to UFOs and aliens in general, you can send them to my e-mail
address [below].  Also, if you prefer not to call but think you might like
to be interviewed for the article, you may e-mail your name and phone #
to me.
>Thanks.
>
>/./.  Liam T. A. Ford        [e-mail]
>"I didn't come here to play guessing games."--Humbert Humbert in
>                        Lolita [the movie]
>
LTAF
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!linus!linus!tympani!gpivar
From: [e-mail] (Greg Pivarnik)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re:  A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.:
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 10:43:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va
Lines: 38
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Nntp-Posting-Host: tympani.mitre.org

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
|>
|> >Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma
|> >Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich.
|> >All rights reserved. This message may be copied for the sole purpose
|> >of sharing it with others. No part of this message may be published,
|> >printed, transmitted, stored in a retrieval system, or translated into
|> >any other human language without the express permission of The Alpha
|> >Connection, Inc., Suite 204, 7410 Montgomery Blvd., NE, Albuquerque,
|> >NM 87109.
|>
|> What is Norma Milanovich a doctor of, and why does she place such
|> restrictions on a message which she claims she is not the author of?
|>
|> --
|>   *  From the disk of:    | NEW CONNECTION:        | I'm in a groove now
|>   Jim Shaffer, Jr.    | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms    | -- or is it a rut?
|>   37 Brook Street    | [e-mail]|
|>   Montgomery, PA 17752    | [e-mail]    | (Rush, "Face Up")


Jim, and anyone else who wants to know, The copyright impossed is there so
that the text remains unchanged.  You'll find a similar copyright on Bible,
Tora(sp?),etc. Its, primarily there to keep the message clear(although people
will read into it anyway they wish). The long and short of it is, it is not for money
making purposes, it is for clarity. Secondly, a little investigative work and you'll
find out what Dr. milanovich is a doctor of...I did, go ahead, it wont hurt you.
Hint:( dial [phone], when the operator asks,"what city?", you say,
"Albuquerque", she'll say,"what listing?", you say,"I need the number for THE
ALPHA CONNECTION", she'll say,"hold for the number"
Dr. milanovich founded the Alpha Connection and they would be glad to fill
anybody in that calls.
--
Greg
--
"I dream therefore I am."
--
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!linus!linus!tympani!gpivar
From: [e-mail] (Greg Pivarnik)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: KUTHUMI to the UN ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 11:06:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va
Lines: 16
Nntp-Posting-Host: tympani.mitre.org

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Graham Toal) writes:
|> A bit of info.  The UFO hoax message played on south east radio in the UK
|> several years ago -- I met the guy who did it and heard his original
|> tapes and the off-air tapes.  he was an ex-BBC technician and his friends
|> & he were all blasted when they did it...
|>
|> G

What does any of this,"bit of info", have to do with Kuthumi to the UN?
If you're trying to say that this BBC person hoaxed the Kuthumi channeling,
then my friend, you are indeed a silly person.
--
Greg
--
"I dream therefore I am."
--
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Alien Visitor
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 13:35:35 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 14

John posts through Don Showen's machine about a lady who
claimed she was from Venus and came here when she was around
2 years old:

And then there are those beings who are also from Venus, but
elect to incarnate the normal way human beings do on planet
earth for various reasons.

Ahhhhh....Venus.....planet of love (Aphrodite, etc.:-)  )

So how many of you readers think you might be from Venus, with
love in the core of your being?

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!carina.unm.edu!ee3401cb
From: [e-mail] (Student Class Account)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor
Message-ID: <gpzctw#@lynx.unm.edu>
Date: 8 Oct 91 15:39:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2348 sci.skeptic:16095

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>     Back in the 1970 s I was a civilian electronics instructor at Treasure
>Island, calif.  While passing out some books about UFO s to some of my
>students  before going to classes a fellow instructor heard  what I was saying
>to my students.
>    Later that night he was working at a second job fixing a lady;s T.V. set
>and told her what I has been saying and how stupid he thought I was.  She then
>told him that he shouldn t have made fun of what I was saying, it was the
>truth and she was from Venus herself.   She had been brought here when she was
>two years old and had been raised by Earth people.  He didn t believe her and
>asked why she would come to Earth if she was from Venus.  She then said that
>she  was brought here from Venus for the same reason that we sometimes send
>our children go to Europe, it s for our education. She then informed him they
>on Venus are more advanced than we are on Earth.  He then said  If your so far
>advanced why don t you came down here and make slaves of us ?  Lady; We are

Or better yet, why cant you fix your own Television set?:^)

>  John.
>
James
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!ucla-mic!mvs.oac.ucla.edu!CSYSPCN
From: [e-mail] (CSYSPCN)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO Conference Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 16:23:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: MVS NNTP News Reader <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4
Nntp-Posting-Host: mvs.oac.ucla.edu

>They are so bold as to fly a boomerang shaped space craft right over downtown
>Palmdale.                                                  to release t

Could this have been the Stealth bomber?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!transfer!bu.edu!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 10:40:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: WorldWide Software
Lines: 18
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[e-mail] writes:

>Now somewhere on a floppy I have transcribed what Einstein said
>through Carole about why he couldn t bring through technical information
>because Carole did not have a technical vocabulary.

OK, let Einstein or any of your other channel-broadcasters do the
following:

1) Write a mathematical proof or plans for a device
2) Turn each word in the above document into a sentence that sort of
makes sense using words, each of which starts with a letter of the word.
3) Channel these sentences.
--
I'll leave you with this saying:
..  ich bin in einem dusenjet ins jahr 53 vor chr...
 ich lande im antiken Rom...  einige gladiatoren spielen scrabble...
 ich rieche PIZZA...
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From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 10:44:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: WorldWide Software
Lines: 14
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16103 alt.paranormal:3318 alt.alien.visitors:2351 talk.religion.newage:7144

[e-mail] writes:

>Barry I really want to express my thanks and gratitude for your confession.
>You do the churches, govt., education system and AMA proud!  You are
>responding precisely the way they programed you.  Beautiful!!!!

Don, why do you think that the government, if it behaves the way you
claim it does, allows you to continue posting?  Why haven't they
burned you at the stake or lobotomized you?  Perhaps the government
faked the Pleiadian Transcripts in order to discredit true channelers,
and you are their unwitting dupe?
--
I'll leave you with this saying:
I'm young..  I'm HEALTHY..  I can HIKE THRU CAPT GROGAN'S LUMBAR REGIONS!
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From: [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 17:15:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University, Ca , USA
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alan Filipski) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Sildem Gandy) writes:
>>Try reading "The girl with blue eyes". I don't remember the author off-hand
>>but this has a very interesting account of a girl regressed to a previous
>>life.  She remembered a life when her name was "Lishus Faver". And "We took
>>the gates".  Her father tried to find an historical record of this and event-
>>ually found one of an Aloyisious LeFever who was famed for have taken the
>>gates of a fort.  His daughter had no possibility of knowing this very
>>obscure bit of history.
>
>Why not? if this LeFever was so famous, maybe one of the girls teachers
>or acquaintances knew about him and told her the story. Maybe she saw
>an allusion to him in a book.  Please explain why she had "no
>possibility of knowing" this, but her father did.  Did the father
>discover information known to no one else?  How could he even know
>that no one else had this information?
>

Even this doesn't cover it.  Notice that the daughter did not say 'Aloyisious
LeFever' she said Lishus Faver.  The father made a connection based on the
fact that the names sounded similar.  The daughter could have given the names
Al Lefev, Lish Fever, Lish Faver, Al Fever, Al Faver, Lish Lefev, Aloyish
Le, Al Fev, Lishus Fev, etc. and all these would have matched.

There are a lot of people who have lived and they did a lot of things.  If we
are given a random name and are allowed to interpret it in any of a hundred
ways it is unsurprising that we can find someone who 'had' that name.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions above are not mine.  I stole them all from the person sitting next
to me.  If you don't like them, I can get you his address and you can kill him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan "Long live the Goon Show" Morgan | "You rotton swine, you!" - Bluebottle
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Watch out!  This gun is loaded and so am I." - Major Denis Bloodnok

    EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo!  EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO Conference Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 19:12:53 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 9


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (CSYSPCN) writes...
>>They are so bold as to fly a boomerang shaped space craft right over downtown
>>Palmdale.                                                  to release t
>
>Could this have been the Stealth bomber?


        I had the exact same thought a B-2 Stealth Bomber.
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Andrew Fink)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: WAS:Re: Pregnant Russian Spacewomen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 20:41:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 5
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

>Funny how most of the 'TOO shocking' news stories seem to occur in other
>countries, far away from the usual herd of roving video reporters.
So? Maybe improbability fields exist, and the degree of improbability is
directly proportional to the distance from a media source. You assume
too much!
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Andrew Fink)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 20:44:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 6
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

>So how many of you readers think you might be from Venus, with
>love in the core of your being?
Well, I never have any idea where I am, so I guess I may as well be from
Venus. The climate must be much more entertaining.

"Life is too important to be taken seriously."  <Oscar Wilde>
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Andrew Fink)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 20:56:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 15
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

>burned you at the stake or lobotomized you?  Perhaps the government
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How can you be so sure they didn't?

Personally, I think all of this talk about government concealing aliens
is totally missing a vital point: every influential position in our
government is _held_ by an alien. Say you wanted to control a planet.
Would you do it by making crop circles, blowing up Siberian forestland,
or cruising the atmospheric gut in giant cigars? No! You would replace
all of the major movers in the world with beings of your own kind, and
divert whatever resources you would like towards your own ends. Face it,
people: the Pentagon is the biggest alien stronghold on Earth. Arms
sales to Iraq/Iran/Saudi Arabia are *nothing* compared to what we've
been _giving_ directly to the aliens. Where do you think we got the
technology to build the Stealth?
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Andrew Fink)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO Conference Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 20:58:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 5
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

>>They are so bold as to fly a boomerang shaped space craft right over downtown
>>Palmdale.                                                  to release t
>
>Could this have been the Stealth bomber?
Somebody saw it, didn't they?
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From: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 11:04:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (System Administration)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (dhaley) writes:
>Does anyone out there have any information on this? I would like to know the
>date that it occured and any evidence there is that it was a space ship. All
>I know is that a large cylindrical metal object disintegrated in an Atomic
>explosion above Siberia, some forty odd years before we got nuclear technology.


Hello Everyone,

I've been reading things here for a while. This is my first posting.
Does the man from OZ refer to the TUNGUSKA event - I thought it was
a large meteorite that caused the forests to be flattened. Although there
was a book published that purports to have interviewed aging people who
can remember seeing what was interpreted as an out of control alien craft.

I bet this discussion has occured before?

Frank.


--
"On the plains of hesitation lie the bones of countless millions, of those
who stopped to view their success, and while resting - died!"
<[e-mail]>  ||  !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 16:25:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1991Oct6.191302.9403@anasaz> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 17
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Mon, 7 Oct 1991 03:08:19 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> Another theory (I think in Science News), is that it was a small
> quantum black hole.  These are black holes created about the time of
> the Big Bang, and can be of substellar mass.  Such a black hole could
> range from mere atoms of mass up to any size.  As it happens, black
> holes this small tend to evaporate, smaller ones evaporating faster.
> So there is a lower limit on the size of the black hole.  It still
> could be of a mass of a planetoid and still be quite small, about
> subatomic diameters.  If it was a black hole, it would have passed
> right through the Earth, and out the other side.  Presumably, it's
> velocity was low enough that it wasn't captured.

    There is one piece of evidence to support this. At the same time on the
opposite side of the globe, a sea captain reported seeing a huge spout of
water towering into the sky.  An extremely dense object passing through the
earth would be likely to pull some material along with it at the exit point.
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From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: "joining" Mufon (attn: Don Allen)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 17:20:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>  > How does one join/subscribe to/whatever MUFON? I enjoy the postings you
>  > put
>  > out here on a.a.v (lots less noise, and I don't recall seeing *any*
>  > channelled messages :-). If you could e-mail me or post to this
>  > newsgroup,
>  > I'd be most appreciative. Thanks!
>
> I would investigate more about this.  Several of their state directors known
> to me are channelers or contactees.

Really? Well, fer what it's worth, I don't really care about the individuals
personal beliefs as long as they can keep it out of their research...granted,
I don't see *everything* that goes out on the MUFON network, but the stuff
Don has uploaded seems to have a nice skepticism-to-openmindedness ratio.

BTW, thanks to all who replied with the info!

Craig

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- "It was during the battle of   Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  Agincourt that Fedmahn Kassad       Internet: [e-mail] --
--  encountered the woman he would       IBM Austin: [e-mail] --
--  spend the rest of his life seeking."            VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
---------------- Dan Simmons, _Hyperion_ ------------------------------------
-- off 906/4A-015 zip 9641 ph [phone] tl 678-8068 hm [phone] --
-- IBM Personal Systems Programming,  11400 Burnet Road, Austin, TX, 78759 --
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 17:27:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 31
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2361 sci.skeptic:16128

In article <[e-mail]>, John borrows [e-mail]'s
account to write:
>
...
>     Later that night he was working at a second job fixing a lady;s T.V. set
...
> asked why she would come to Earth if she was from Venus.  She then said that
> she  was brought here from Venus for the same reason that we sometimes send
> our children go to Europe, it s for our education. She then informed him they
> on Venus are more advanced than we are on Earth.  He then said  If
your so far
> advanced why don t you came down here and make slaves of us ?...

Actually, I think the question I would have asked is "Why don't you fix your
own damn teevee, then?"

Of course, I guess it's possible that she wasn't here to be educated in
television repair. But given the ambient temperature on Venus, I bet she
never had to call an A/C repairman. ;-)

Craig

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- "It was during the battle of   Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  Agincourt that Fedmahn Kassad       Internet: [e-mail] --
--  encountered the woman he would       IBM Austin: [e-mail] --
--  spend the rest of his life seeking."            VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
---------------- Dan Simmons, _Hyperion_ ------------------------------------
-- off 906/4A-015 zip 9641 ph [phone] tl 678-8068 hm [phone] --
-- IBM Personal Systems Programming,  11400 Burnet Road, Austin, TX, 78759 --
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: mysterious British deaths
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 18:12:21 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 26
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2362 alt.conspiracy:7991

Last night when I was on Compuserve, there was a message thread about
Sydney Sheldon's new book "The Doomsday Conspiracy" which has a
UFO-conspiracy-oriented plot.  (I haven't read it, but it's said to be
pretty predictable for anyone who knows anything about UFOs -- although he
has the Greys being benevolent.)  In the back of the book there's a list of
the 23 British scientists and technicians with high-tech defense
contracts who have died under mysterious circumstances (sometimes bizarre
suicides) in the past six years.  I've seen these deaths blamed on
everything from the Russians to MJ-12 (or Alternative 3), but never with
any strong supporting evidence.  But last night I had a new idea.  In
another forum, there was a thread about the theory that crop circles are
the results of orbital maser weapon testing.  This would obviously be a
top-secret project.  Could there be a connection?  I don't have any
evidence for it, but it's less bizarre than the Alternative 3 scenario and
makes a little more sense (to me) than the Russian intelligence scenario
(what could they have discovered that was so important that they couldn't
be allowed to live?)  Of course, I don't know why they would be considered
a threat to SDI secrecy either.

Anybody have any ideas to contribute?

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 17:43:07 GMT
References: <1991Oct6.233812.15085@anasaz> <1991Oct7.021606.16967@anasaz>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 23

In article <1991Oct7.021606.16967@anasaz> billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes:
>Well, yours was one of the valid "comet/meteor theories" I was talking about.
>But, so far, all the falling things we know about left craters.  OK, so it
>could have exploded but to totally vaporize so that no piece was left to
>leave even a small crater is a little hard to accept.

I don't have too much trouble accepting a piece of a comet totally
vaporizing.

>Has anyone ever thought that this might have been the first attempt by our
>space brothers to make a crop circle only it didn't go too well?

A crop circle in pine trees -- now *that* would be an amazing sight!

But seriously, I'm pretty sure the circles go back a lot further than 1908.
I recently heard that British folklore from centuries ago includes tales of
a "mowing demon" that produced something similar to crop circles.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 17:49:58 GMT
References: <1991Oct6.233812.15085@anasaz> <1991Oct7.021606.16967@anasaz> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 10

I forgot to ask in my last article, what is the current thinking on
radiation found (or not found) at Tunguska?  I've never heard the
definitive story -- some people claim there was evidence of radiation,
others don't.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: mysterious British deaths
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 05:50:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: neur0mancer
Organization: University of Florida  (ufl.edu)
Lines: 38
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2365 alt.conspiracy:7995
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes...
>...
>    In the back of the book there's a list of
>the 23 British scientists and technicians with high-tech defense
>contracts who have died under mysterious circumstances (sometimes bizarre
>suicides) in the past six years.  I've seen these deaths blamed on
>everything from the Russians to MJ-12 (or Alternative 3), but never with
>any strong supporting evidence.  But last night I had a new idea.  In
>another forum, there was a thread about the theory that crop circles are
>the results of orbital maser weapon testing.  This would obviously be a
>top-secret project.  Could there be a connection?  I don't have any
>evidence for it, but it's less bizarre than the Alternative 3 scenario and
>makes a little more sense (to me) than the Russian intelligence scenario
>(what could they have discovered that was so important that they couldn't
>be allowed to live?)  Of course, I don't know why they would be considered
>a threat to SDI secrecy either.

>Anybody have any ideas to contribute?

> Jim Shaffer, Jr.

I noticed a strong similarity between a short story by Isaac Asimov (forget
title) and the events in England.  In the story, scientists who are working on
a secret shield that would block nuclear weapons (it was less like SDI and
more like a force field) suddenly begin killing themselves for no reason.  The
last remaining scientist who can finish the job feels compelled to kill
himself, although he doesn't know why.  The people involved watch him all the
time and take away his shoelaces.  At some point someone speculates that the
reason the scientists are killing themselves is because some sort of non-
human force doesn't want humanity to get out of hand and wants them to remain
vulnerable to nuclear weapons.

This story was written in the 60's, I think.  Maybe Asimov had them killed.

=====
[e-mail]
[e-mail] (maybe)
[e-mail] (checked least often)
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From: [e-mail] (Graham Toal)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: KUTHUMI to the UN ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 01:49:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: MCGV Stack @ EUT, Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Graham Toal) writes:
>|> A bit of info.  The UFO hoax message played on south east radio in the UK
>|> several years ago -- I met the guy who did it and heard his original
>|> tapes and the off-air tapes.  he was an ex-BBC technician and his friends
>|> & he were all blasted when they did it...
>|>
>|> G
>
>What does any of this,"bit of info", have to do with Kuthumi to the UN?
>If you're trying to say that this BBC person hoaxed the Kuthumi channeling,
>then my friend, you are indeed a silly person.

No - actually, I missed the original posting, and had assumed that you were
talking about a *radio* message - I was pointing out that the most famous
'message from outer space' to date (and one that hadn't been debunked as
far as I know) was a good old fashioned prank, and that I had seen concrete
proof of this.

If you are in fact talking about messages from a buddy of Hunk Ra (sorry,
I MEAN HUNK RA!!!! [he shouts in a barbarian tone]) then I think you're
the one who should start worrying about his intelligence...

G
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From: [e-mail] (Scott M Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pregnant Russian Spacewomen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 00:00:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 3

Ho ho ho ha ha ha.  You folks actually BELIEVE the tabloid yak?
Any of the "photos" that these rags print can EASILY be created from
multiple sources and then composited by a computer.  Gimmee a break.
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From: [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 04:37:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 13
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16163 alt.paranormal:3332 alt.alien.visitors:2368 talk.religion.newage:7166

Don,
Thanks for replying.  Your explanation makes some sense to me, but I'll stay
middle of the road.

Thanks for the info on the lizzie/draco/greys.  I was just curious.  I am sure
that the world as a whole is looking forward to meeting new sentient beings.
But I am afraid that until racism and bigotry is erased from our culture we
will not be prepared for a meeting.

Steven Graziano
[e-mail]

p.s. If you have any more articles, I would be interested in reading them.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.bbn.com!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!sgraziano
From: [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 05:24:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 1

Isn't venus the next planet we'll populate after we destroy earth? :)
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From: [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pregnant Russian Spacewomen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 05:39:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 1

Be sure to invite 'Bob' the Alien from Venus! (Epic Lite #1 folks!great comic)
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From: [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pregnant Russian Spacewomen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 05:28:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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There are things called 'Image Processors' you know.  An enhanced paint
program that will allow you to cut and paste photos on a computers screen
and detail them so that they look real.

I don't mean to sound sarcastic but I have seen the pictures and enjoy them
because they are always neat to look at. (Horned baby born in wisconsin) et al



Steven Graziano
[e-mail]

I apologize if I insulted your intelligence
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From: [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 05:42:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16164 alt.paranormal:3333 alt.alien.visitors:2372 talk.religion.newage:7167

I remember reading about the reptilian brain stem in my health class, but I
think it's just based on the similarities of our brain with that of a reptiles
keyword here is 'similar' (sp?)

Steven Graziano
[e-mail] - The guy with no interesting signoff.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!chroma
From: [e-mail] (Steve Kudlak)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 13:46:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: Cygnus Support, Palo Alto
Lines: 79
Nntp-Posting-Host: cygnus.com
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of Tue, 8 Oct 1991 13:35:35 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:

   Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
   Path: hoptoad!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
   From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
   Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
   Distribution: usa
   Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1991 13:35:35 GMT
   Lines: 15

   John posts through Don Showen's machine about a lady who
   claimed she was from Venus and came here when she was around
   2 years old:

   And then there are those beings who are also from Venus, but
   elect to incarnate the normal way human beings do on planet
   earth for various reasons.

   Ahhhhh....Venus.....planet of love (Aphrodite, etc.:-)  )

   So how many of you readers think you might be from Venus, with
   love in the core of your being?

   Kathy


Oh Babe! I can't resist this one! :) :) :)

Several friends of mine claim that I have Venusian Blood (i.e. genes)
because my temperature preference is somewhere near 300K (80F) and
I will try to keep my living space near this temperature, which to
the consternation of people who think I should be saving energy in
the winter. Yes 65F feels a little too cool and 60 or below is pretty
much unbearable unless I am moving around. I pointed out to said
friends that 300K is a far cry from 1000K and that although I spend
time in a darkroom, and seem immune to sulpherous smells that would
make others faint, this is too a far cry from breathing very hot
sulphuric acid fumes. By blood chemistry is anomalous and so is my
EEG but as far as I can tell I am human, tho some would dispute that.
Next they'll start rumours that I am here to try to get Earth Women. :)
Not something I seem terribly successful at doing. :)

Speaking of "Mysteriousity Stories" ...I was once contacted by a
person who claimed? was a representative of a small publisher in
New Mexico. He had heard of me thru some Amiga related something or
other and asked if I could do a raytrace flying saucer for him for
about $700.00 ...It sounded like a good deal and so I did make an
image for him. He agreed not to try to represent it as a picture
of anything real. They (I say they because it was some woman who
who I also spoke with) paid me and the check was good. They even mentioned
future work, and that they liked it. Apparently they had this theory
that humans were a genetic hack that somewhere involves genes from
Gigantopithices(sp?) and all sorts of weird things, some of them
pretty kinky, like that there were humans who were snarfed and
modified and sent out as breeders, and that one could tell because
of their unusual genitals and preference for hot environments. I
know I qualify under one of those things but the other is questionable. :)
Anyway they were supposed to call me back, but never did and when
I posted them a letter, I got "no one here by that name" and never
heard from them again...They were supposedly from New Mexico, and
that's where I used to send things. Probably has a normal explanation
...but it was pretty strange and of all the alien breeding stories I
have heard this one had several weird and uniques features. Some of
which might fly if posted to alt.sex. :) I was debating on asking
someone from New Mexico if they ever of the people involved. One was
named Kathy too. :) :) :)





            Have fun,
            Sends Steve


Disclaimer: NO one in the entire known universe should be
            responsible for my opinions.

Best Reply to: [e-mail] but few do... :)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 16:13:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Distribution: usa
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Lines: 12
Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano) writes:
>Isn't venus the next planet we'll populate after we destroy earth? :)

No, Venus was the last planet we destroyed before we populated Earth.  ;^)

That's not planetary gasses, that's smog!

--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__
  Warren   v\ *|
             V
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!mahendo!pluto!alan
From: [e-mail] (Alan Quan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Crop Circle Lectures
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 17:00:21 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Alan Quan)
Organization: Technology Development Group (JPL)
Lines: 8

I've heard that there is going to be (or has already begun) a ten city
tour of lectures in the U.S. on the latest crop circle information.
Does anyone know if this will come to Los Angeles, and if so when and
where it will be?  Perhaps the speakers will have a sound refutation of
the Doug and Dave show.


Alan Quan
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!gatech!uflorida!neur0mancer
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,rec.arts.comics
Subject: Re: Pregnant Russian Spacewomen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 17:40:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: neur0mancer
Organization: none
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2376 rec.arts.comics:37172

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano)
 writes...
>Be sure to invite 'Bob' the Alien from Venus! (Epic Lite #1 folks!great comic)

Bob the alien has also made many appearances in Dark Horse Presents.

======
[e-mail]
[e-mail] (maybe)
[e-mail] (checked least often)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ukc!icdoc!sot-ecs!of
From: [e-mail] (Fibre Optics)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: mysterious British deaths
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 14:09:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2377 alt.conspiracy:8016

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:


[stuff about mysterious deaths of British Scientists deleted]

>Anybody have any ideas to contribute?

These people mainly worked for GEC/Marconi and the latest one is the
most interesting. He'd applied for two patents on `Stardrives' shortly
before he was found, in a lake tied to something heavy. If you die
before your patent is granted, your patent dies with you.
Scary huh ?



--
Peter Harris   G4BDQ  |         Unusual exploding disclaimer  ->    (}|){//)
Fibre Optics *-----------------------------------------------------(--PAF !-)
Southampton University| "Relax in the safety of your own delusions" (/}|{\\)
[e-mail]    |           Kerry Wendell Thornley              |||
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!star.dec.com!dipirro
From: [e-mail] (Steve DiPirro)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: "Childhood's End"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 18:26:36 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 17


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>Has anyone read the science fiction book "Childhood's End" by A. C. Clarke, and
>if so, what do you think about it? Also, does anyone know why it was originally
>going to be made into a movie but that for some reason it was cancelled?

I read it a while back and enjoyed it very much. It has a different twist
than every other "first contact" SF novel I've read. The ending is unexpected
and makes you think...and might even make you sad. I've said enough.

I hadn't heard about the movie and can't comment on that.

------------
Steve DiPirro        [e-mail]
                     --or-- ...!decwrl!star.dec.com!dipirro
                     --or-- [e-mail]
------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!nmsu!dante!aviechec
From: [e-mail] (     Bongo     )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Alien Sex
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 21:22:11 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 9



Has anyone out there had a sexual encounter with an extra-
terrestrial?  If so, I would really like to hear about it.
Details details!



Al the Pal
Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pregnant Russian Spacewomen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 22:10:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay)
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano) writes:
>There are things called 'Image Processors' you know.  An enhanced paint
>program that will allow you to cut and paste photos on a computers screen
>and detail them so that they look real.

Actually, most of the tabloids don't even seem to bother with that: they
cut photos out of other newspapers and glue them together.  It's usually
pretty obvious: people's hair gets trimmed to a simple contour, or the
shadowing is mismatchedm or worse... my personal favorite is one that
purports to show Prince Charles squirting toothpaste up his nose.  The
halftone pattern in the tube is much larger (and oriented differently)
than in Charles himself.

The most common technique just seems to be to take a photo and doodle on
it with ordinary paint.  You can usually see brushstrokes in the pieces
they add on (horns, invading aliens, etc.)

Maybe someday the Enquirer, etc., will move up to MacPaint.

                            -- K.


--
.............................................................................
James "Kibo" Parry      [e-mail]    Independent graphic designer
271 Dartmouth St. #3D                         (specialty: logos & corporate
Boston, MA 02116          [phone]      identities) and type designer.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: firsthand accounts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 22:36:46 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 6
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11


    I'm curious to know how many of the people who read this group have had
experiences that they interpret as encounters with extraterristrial
vehicles or beings.  I'm not talking about channelling, but actual physical
events.  If you feel that you have had such encounters, whould you please post
brief accounts?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: "joining" Mufon / channellers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 23:32:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
 writes:
>
> Well, fer what it's worth, I don't really care about the individuals
> personal beliefs as long as they can keep it out of their research...

> -- IBM Personal Systems Programming,  11400 Burnet Road, Austin, TX, 78759 --
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does this say about OS/2 V2 ?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: mysterious British deaths
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 23:28:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2383 alt.conspiracy:8028

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>....  I've seen these deaths blamed on
> everything from the Russians to MJ-12 (or Alternative 3), ........
>.... but it's less bizarre than the Alternative 3 scenario...

What is MJ-12/Alternative 3  ?


BTW, Dousing one's car with petrol and driving full speed into a brick wall
doesn't seem too scientific to me.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!hp4nl!tuegate.tue.nl!gem!gtoal
From: [e-mail] (Graham Toal)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: mysterious British deaths
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 21:32:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: MCGV Stack @ EUT, Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Lines: 21
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2384 alt.conspiracy:8029

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>has the Greys being benevolent.)  In the back of the book there's a list of
>the 23 British scientists and technicians with high-tech defense
>contracts who have died under mysterious circumstances (sometimes bizarre
>suicides) in the past six years.  I've seen these deaths blamed on
>everything from the Russians to MJ-12 (or Alternative 3), but never with
>any strong supporting evidence.

I think we'll find some day that the explanations for these are a lot
closer to home.  Partly they are just 'man bites dog' syndrom in the
press - you get a couple happening close together by normal coincidence,
someone notices, then anything remotely related is played up into a
big story.

If there are a couple left which are genuinely suspicious, you have to
look no further than government complicity in the Arms business.  Look
at your own Casolaro story for instance.  Arms business + govt == big
money.  There's no room in that equation for people with loud mouths
or a conscience...

G
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!lll-winken!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!ukma!vlsi!wkuvx1.bitnet!peterbl
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: new kid on the block
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 22:55:39 GMT
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY
Lines: 10

SUBJECT: new kid on the block

       Hello,
          I've had multiple experiences and have known for three years
now.  I'm ready to make contact with others that have had experiences
with sightings or the Greys.  Would like more info on this newsgroup.
I know I'm coming in late in the game, so I would appreciate information
previously posted that might be of interest.  Don't want to give too much
information about myself yet, especially because I don't know who may be
listening.  username:PETERBL.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ukc!dcl-cs!gdt!bond!strath-cs!glasgow!jack
From: [e-mail] (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: mysterious British deaths
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 18:51:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie
Lines: 31
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2386 alt.conspiracy:8033

[e-mail] wrote:
> Last night when I was on Compuserve, there was a message thread about
> Sydney Sheldon's new book "The Doomsday Conspiracy" which has a
> UFO-conspiracy-oriented plot.[...]  In the back of the book there's a list
> of the 23 British scientists and technicians with high-tech defense
> contracts who have died under mysterious circumstances (sometimes bizarre
> suicides) in the past six years.  I've seen these deaths blamed on
> everything from the Russians to MJ-12 (or Alternative 3), but never with
> any strong supporting evidence.

There is a serious investigative book about these deaths; the title is
"Open Verdict", but I forget the other details.  I'll post them when I find
them.  It suggests tentatively that some of the "suicides" were driven to
it by British Intelligence using some unusual but quite explicable mind
control techniques, but doesn't have a clear-cut explanation of why this
was done that fits all of them.  All were working on conventional and
semi-public bits of military electronics.  Sounds like Sheldon was ripping
off this source to lend credibility to the usual New Age hype, lies and
waffle.

Incidentally, I'm still waiting for Don Allen to tell me what British media
source reported the alleged 1950s Brighton UFO incident in his long list of
equally unreferenced incidents.  I think I'll be waiting a long time.  If
the only one that's in my backyard and that I might be able to check on is
spun out of thin air, it doesn't say much for the others.

--
--  Jack Campin   Computing Science Department, Glasgow University, 17 Lilybank
Gardens, Glasgow G12 8QQ, Scotland   041 339 8855 x6854 work  041 556 1878 home
JANET: [e-mail]   BANG!net: via mcsun and ukc   FAX: [phone]
INTERNET: via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk   BITNET: via UKACRL   UUCP: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!uokmax!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts are boring..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 05:35:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 27
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3340 alt.alien.visitors:2387 sci.skeptic:16191

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
 (Karen Millar) writes:>
>     In my understanding, you have missed the point entirely, Brian.
> You *are* yourself hooked up to something that may be referred to as
> higher power, or collective unconscious, or god, (not necessarily aliens).
> All you have to do is get in tune with that hp by forgetting about your
> self-imposed limitations, and solve that problem of yours. It's not an
> easy task, but it is do-able... the information you desire is free for the
> taking, if you can but unlock your consciousnes, as Einstein and many
> many others have done. It is getting in tune with how the universe works,
> and we *are* capable of doing this. The main issue that the Pleiadians
> are trying to get across our thick sculls is that
>
>             IT IS TIME TO WAKE UP!
>
>
> --
>     Love is the answer...
>     Communication Facilities Designer
>     Freelance in the Land of Enchantment              Albuquerque, NM
>     [e-mail]                             [phone]

This is getting beyong a joke.  Time to move on....

Hey Karen, how many *blondes* does it take to:
     - make a "perfectly real honest experience"?
     - make a past life?  or should that be vice-versa??
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Our Moon Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 01:59:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Warren Burstein) writes:
>[e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>>For those of you who think that channelled communications are secure..think
>>again..
>
>Not to fear, channeled info is really encrypted in such a way that it
>appears to be plaintext.  This explains the nonsensical nature of the
>"plaintext".  Of course no one has the key, the aliens are bringing
>that with them because some clerk in Orion mistakingly stamped it
>"deliver by hand".
>
>How do I know all this?  I just made it up, that's how.
>--
>/|/-\/-\       The entire world            Jerusalem
> |__/__/_/     is a very strange carrot
> |warren@      But the farmer
>/ worlds.COM   is not worried at all.

That's very good Warren..what do you want, a biscuit?


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 17:23:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew) writes:
>
>   I'll end with last line from the entry: "Whatever the actual
>cause of the Tunguska event, it has maintained a powerful grip
>on the popular imagination."

That's putting it mildly.  There are apparently at least a few people who
believe that it was one of Tesla's experiments!  I have a file on it around
here somewhere.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: UFO Conference Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 91 17:27:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>       This information has been posted by Don Showen  for John Winston.
>     One of the speakers I video taped in the Phoenix UFO Conference was
>William Hamilton.  He had a lot to say about the underground experimental
>bases that are located around Palmdale and Tehachapi, Calif, where some of our
>major aircraft companies are working with  aliens to produce space craft.
>They are so bold as to fly a boomerang shaped space craft right over downtown
>Palmdale. There is a rumor that our government is planning to release this

So someone's flying a boomerang-shaped craft around California.  Does that
make it alien?

>     Well folks it s happened, there are now reports of flying pigs over North
>America and Canada.  They are UFP s, Unidentified Flying Pigs.  So the next

Please cite sources.  (Other than Pink Floyd concerts.)

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!phad.hsc.usc.edu!dyett
From: [e-mail] (Donald Yett)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Implants, end of world, etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 06:46:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
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Nntp-Posting-Host: phad.hsc.usc.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Iain James\
on) writes:

>
>The implant one I cannot remember, but it has to
>do with an ex nazi who is taking over the world
>by implanting everyone. This guy lives in the antarctic
>and is very old. Not a bad novel.
>

"Ender's Game" - Orson Scott Card - TOR Books Order # 53253-8
"Speaker for the Dead" - Orson Scott Card - TOR Books Order # 53257-0

Both deal with implants in one form or another.
Both deal with alien cultures, "Ender's Game" actually has something to do
with a recently hevily publicized American fighter program (try Aeronautics &
Space Weekly around late-spring/early-summer of 1986..  "Virtual Cockpit & the
ATF (or something using those words in close proximity)"

>
>Unless it is all a conspiricy by the secret US government.
>

Keep an open mind.  If you believed Ollie North in '87, then I've got a bridge
to sell ya!  It will be interesting to see what comes out of the Noriega trial
and the BCCI trial!  The government abounds with conspiracy!  Why do you think
the Swiss Banking system is still anonymous (How many American politicians have
accounts there I wonder)?  How would you explain such a thing as alien beings
to a generally dumb public if you had the power to do so?  There are still
people out there who think that in case of Nuclear attack, they would be warned
a minute or two in advance (Let's see, Distance to shore < 200 Mi, Missile
speed > Mach 5...) In other words, the public is happy, why spoil their day
especially in the middle of their favoite sitcom with news of alien beings?
That would be the case for maybe 60-80% of the population, and therefore, the
view of the government.  I'm not one of those conspiracy ravers looking under
the bed, I just view it as fact that there is MUCH hidden from the public.

One way to do it might be for us to build a ship (possibly through technology
exchange with aliens) and to say that WE discovered them...  Laughable, but
who knows?

It is late, so I shall say L8r..
--
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
| [e-mail]  | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed,
|   Just my opinions!     | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 91 11:23:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: WorldWide Software
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[e-mail] (David Jones) writes:

>Carl Sagan and Richard Hoagland used to be friends.  In public, Sagan says
>that this information is nonsense, but in private, he says something quite
>different.

Just because Carl Sagan resorts to obscenity every time he is asked
about Hoagland is no reason to think less of him.

> *         cassette tape of the sounds of one of their space ships.

I can top that, I have a program which makes the same sound on my
SoundBlaster.  Of course I simply tweaked the program until it sounded
just like the UFO that was hovering outside my window, I will be
terribly offended if anyone suggests otherwise :-)
---
I'll leave you with this saying:
Let me do my TRIBUTE to FISHNET STOCKINGS...
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!phad.hsc.usc.edu!dyett
From: [e-mail] (Donald Yett)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 07:02:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
>
>   Unfortunately technology is a double sided sword, and it appears humans are
>   not capable of dealing with both edges.
>
>This is the only statement you have made which has a germ of truth to
>it.  Yes, technology can be used or abused, but the tendancy now seems
>to use it.  Furthermore, one can even make the case that technology
>which has been previously abused is now being used beneficially.  For
>instance, one could claim that research into germ warfare can be used
>for learning about immunology, etc.
>

Or if you view it from the pharmacutical companies point of view : Such
technologies could be very profitable...  Engineer something that produces
a disease, and sell the cure...  In that case, I would agree with you.  If
you can produce the disease, then the cure is acedemic.

Please note that this is only a hypothetical idea and is not my point of view
on the way things should be done..

--
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
| [e-mail]  | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed,
|   Just my opinions!     | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!yang.earlham.edu!julianm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pregnant Russian Spacewomen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 06:15:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark Francis Stramaglia) writes:
>> Kathy-
>>
>> You should not be so quick to criticize such news papers as the Inquirer
>> or  Weekly World News (which you did not mention). These news sources
>> publish articles to discredit themselves so that the conspiracy does not
>> think to censor any of their true (and often very alarming) articles. If
>> you can learn to "read between the lines" then you will find these
>> newspapers to be a much more reliable source of information than the
>> popular and "respected" journals (such as the New York Times and -worst
>> of all- USA Today) which are owned and controled by the conspiracy, and
>> which practice a policy of disinformation.
>>
>> -Mark F. Stramaglia
>
> This conspiracy sounds familiar, have you been talking to revisionist
> historians lately?

Yeah, probably like the Zionists.  And how about, oh, uhmmm...Satan?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!yang.earlham.edu!patrickl
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pregnant Russian Spacewomen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 06:09:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark Francis Stramaglia) writes:
> Kathy-
>
> You should not be so quick to criticize such news papers as the Inquirer
> or  Weekly World News (which you did not mention). These news sources
> publish articles to discredit themselves so that the conspiracy does not
> think to censor any of their true (and often very alarming) articles. If
> you can learn to "read between the lines" then you will find these
> newspapers to be a much more reliable source of information than the
> popular and "respected" journals (such as the New York Times and -worst
> of all- USA Today) which are owned and controled by the conspiracy, and
> which practice a policy of disinformation.
>
> -Mark F. Stramaglia

This conspiracy sounds familiar, have you been talking to revisionist
historians lately?
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pregnant Russian Spacewomen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 06:11:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark Francis Stramaglia) writes:
>> Kathy-
>>
>> You should not be so quick to criticize such news papers as the Inquirer
>> or  Weekly World News (which you did not mention). These news sources
>> publish articles to discredit themselves so that the conspiracy does not
>> think to censor any of their true (and often very alarming) articles. If
>> you can learn to "read between the lines" then you will find these
>> newspapers to be a much more reliable source of information than the
>> popular and "respected" journals (such as the New York Times and -worst
>> of all- USA Today) which are owned and controled by the conspiracy, and
>> which practice a policy of disinformation.
>>
>> -Mark F. Stramaglia
>
> This conspiracy sounds familiar, have you been talking to revisionist
> historians lately?
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel Fischer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 13:24:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Daniel Fischer)
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut fuer Radioastronomie, Bonn
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (dhaley) writes:
>Does anyone out there have any information on this? I would like to know the
>date that it occured and any evidence there is that it was a space ship. All
>I know is that a large cylindrical metal object disintegrated in an Atomic
   ^^^^
>explosion above Siberia, some forty odd years before we got nuclear technology.

You *know* that??? Very strange... all astronomers in the world know that it
was an asteroid or comet disintegrating in the atmosphere, even it's origin
is pretty clear, the so-called Taurid complex of interplanetary debris.

The only 'evidence' for a spaceship have been erroneously reduced observations
that seemed to indicate an unphysical change of trajectory before the impact
(in 1908, by the way), but this rests on few observers and isn't taken
seriusly anymore.
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From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Implants, end of world, etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 13:01:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Donald Yett) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(Iain James\
> on) writes:
> >
> >The implant one I cannot remember, but it has to
> >do with an ex nazi who is taking over the world
> >by implanting everyone. This guy lives in the antarctic
> >and is very old. Not a bad novel.
>
> "Ender's Game" - Orson Scott Card - TOR Books Order # 53253-8
> "Speaker for the Dead" - Orson Scott Card - TOR Books Order # 53257-0

Naw, it's not OSC...I've read the book Iain is talking about (btw, it *is* a
fairly good read), but I can't remember the title/author. Have also read the
OSC books...no Nazis in them :-)

Craig

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- "It was during the battle of   Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  Agincourt that Fedmahn Kassad       Internet: [e-mail] --
--  encountered the woman he would       IBM Austin: [e-mail] --
--  spend the rest of his life seeking."            VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
---------------- Dan Simmons, _Hyperion_ ------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Chima Echeruo)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULF BREEZE and CIA/DOD Plots
Message-ID: <oecheruo.687110891@silver>
Date: 10 Oct 91 16:08:11 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Indiana University
Lines: 36
Nntp-Posting-Host: silver.ucs.indiana.edu

Hi,

I am new to this newsgroup. I have recently read a book about the Gulf Breeze
incidents. The book provided very convincing evidence that UFO's exist.

I would like to know what has become of the couple (Walter & Frances)?
On a second note, many theories have been advanced as to the reason for US govt
coverups of UFO's.

What about the possibility that UFOs do not really exist and that the governmen
t sponsored dis-information programs that led citizens to believe that aliens
existed and that they could possibly  invade earth.  This could in turn provide
broad support for the US space program, anti-communist propagander and a
general fear in the population.

It's too hard to believe that such evidence exists and yet the government could
pretend that  it did not. Also, it seems that the only government and military
people that come out of the woodwork are the medium to low level staff.

What about Cheney, Collin Powel and even Carter? WHy has no former president
mentioned the presence of UFOS to any of their families or friends?

I am not a skeptic - I tend to be a believer but this topic seems to be fantast
ic and hard to prove.

Either atheistic modern man requires religion (UFOs, Aliens)_ for sanity or
our world may not be as we percieve it to be.

Our we all going mad -seeing visions or are we all being conned by a few
senile leaders?

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                ----- Chima Oke Echeruo -----
               [e-mail]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Peter R. Cook)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: GULF BREEZE and CIA/DOD Plots
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 18:52:23 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 17


In article <oecheruo.687110891@silver>, [e-mail] (Chima Echeruo) writes...

>What about Cheney, Collin Powel and even Carter? WHy has no former president
>mentioned the presence of UFOS to any of their families or friends?

    They have. I also must mention that the security clearance needed
    to gain access to this type of information is beyond the highest
    level.

  Peter R. Cook        | Disclaimer: "Quoth the Raven, eat my shorts man!"
  Digital Equip. Corp.  +--------------------------------------------------
  Marlboro, MA.         |  "1984 has past, forget about Big Brother, welcome
  508-467-6936          |   to the 90's where the government's your mother!"

~ The opinions expressed above are the author's only and do not reflect the ~
~ opinions or anything else of Digital Equipment Corporation. ~
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From: [e-mail] (Doug S. Caprette Bldg. 28 W191 x3892)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: FILE: Codex.asc - Peruvian AF encounter with Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 19:15:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET on dftsrv)
Distribution: na
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler) writes:
>
>I have spent the last few months posting numerous articles and the only
>... (much deleted)
>it or not..I don't care) until I,along with 2 others had a Close
>Encounter in 1974, in Albuquerque,NM. This sighting lasted for 10 min.,
>was *very* close and thereafter convinced me that "there's something
>to all this UFO "nonsense".
>
I would be grateful if you could email a collection of these.  In particular
regarding you own, personal experience.  Regrettably I missed these when
they were posted as I seldom read this group.
>
>people who do read the articles may have something to add in the way
>of _constructive_ dialog. I don't have a problem with skeptics who
>show out-points in a article, or who have something to add to a discussion...
>
Hopefully there is some room in one or more of these groups for myself.
>
>BTW...if you care to do so..you can contact Carl Aztec to check the
>veracity of the FOIA release at:
>
I am also particularly interested in this item.

email to:  [e-mail]

--
 |  Regards,         |   Hughes STX                |    Code 926.9 GSFC        |
 |  Doug Caprette    |   Lanham, Maryland          |    Greenbelt, MD  20771   |
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Cold be hand and heart and bone..." -- The barrow wight
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: GULF BREEZE and CIA/DOD Plots
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 22:11:04 GMT
References: <oecheruo.687110891@silver>
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X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <oecheruo.687110891@silver> [e-mail] writes:

> What about the possibility that UFOs do not really exist and that the governmen
> t sponsored dis-information programs that led citizens to believe that aliens
> existed and that they could possibly  invade earth.  This could in turn provide
> broad support for the US space program, anti-communist propagander and a
> general fear in the population.

   Why would a government need to decieve a population that goes to such
extremes to decieve itself?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien names
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 09:21:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]
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Organization: Mail to News Gateway
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erbury.ac.nz> <[e-mail]>
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X-Blather: Prosaic condensation contraptions
Apparently-To: post-to-news

[e-mail] (Jacques Guy) writes:
> weird French sects (including one that worships.... onions!)

No doubt a derivative of the mushroom-worshipping cults.  Someone
decided that onions go well with mushrooms, fried in butter.  Read the
Gospel according to St. Duxelles.

I guess they cry a lot during religious services ...
--
I'll leave you with this saying:
Look!  A ladder!  Maybe it leads to heaven, or a sandwich!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!udel!genie!emory!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
From: [e-mail] (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 11:55:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap) writes:
>
>    My curiosity is most picqued by the sudden interest in a
>    wildly expensive and seemingly ridiculous proposal for Mars
>    exploration. From being a belly-laugh of an idea, to real
>    proposals for joint US/Russian explorations seems quite a
>    jump in these tough economic times.

I don't believe that there is a "sudden" interest in Mars missions.
Von Braun had detailed Mars mission plans in the 1950s. Mars is the
only other semi-habitable planet in the solar system. It is the logical
next destination in space after visiting the Moon.

As to the question of why go, it's that old monkey curiosity, the urge
to go where no man has gone before. In addition, many people see a cosmic
manifest destiny driving them to want to populate the universe. The
urge to explore and expand is such a basic part of our nature that
it is virtually irresistable.

On the subject of joint US/Russian missions and hard economic times,
Now that the Cold War seems over, the Russian economy is in a mess
and the Soviet space program is looking for strategic partners to
pick up the slack. Meanwhile the US is in a mild recession, not hard
times at all, and with the Cold War seemingly over, doesn't need to
go it alone to "win" a race to Mars. Therefore cooperation rather
than competition makes sense to both parties.

The space program has not followed the logical step by step plan
of Von Braun to the letter, but the goals remain mostly the same.
With Columbus' aniversary of discovering the new world looming,
there is little doubt that the sense of discovery and exploration
is still alive in the world. No doubt there were naysayers in
his time as well who declaimed the expense of his foolish journey to
fall off the edge of the Earth.

Gary
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From: [e-mail] (Karen Millar)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Jokes and such...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 21:16:28 GMT
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[e-mail] writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
> (Karen Millar) writes:>
>>     In my understanding, you have missed the point entirely, Brian.
>> You *are* yourself hooked up to something that may be referred to as
>> higher power, or collective unconscious, or god, (not necessarily aliens).
>> All you have to do is get in tune with that hp by forgetting about your
>> self-imposed limitations, and solve that problem of yours. It's not an
>> easy task, but it is do-able... the information you desire is free for the
>> taking, if you can but unlock your consciousnes, as Einstein and many
>> many others have done. It is getting in tune with how the universe works,
>> and we *are* capable of doing this. The main issue that the Pleiadians
>> are trying to get across our thick sculls is that
>>
>>             IT IS TIME TO WAKE UP!
>>

>This is getting beyong a joke.  Time to move on....
                 ^^^^^^
    does this guy have a code in his node??

>Hey Karen, how many *blondes* does it take to:
>     - make a "perfectly real honest experience"?
>     - make a past life?  or should that be vice-versa??

Who *IS* this guy??


--
    Love is the answer...
    Communication Facilities Designer
    Freelance in the Land of Enchantment              Albuquerque, NM
    [e-mail]                             [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!hp4nl!tuegate.tue.nl!gem!gtoal
From: [e-mail] (Graham Toal)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: mysterious British deaths
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 21:42:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: MCGV Stack @ EUT, Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Lines: 28
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2406 alt.conspiracy:8057

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>.... but it's less bizarre than the Alternative 3 scenario...
>
>What is MJ-12/Alternative 3  ?

Alternative 3 was a UK TV spoof-documentary about the US & USSR co-operating
to start a self-sustained colony on Mars, because they knew that the Earth was
about to die of pollution.  The program was shown in best Orson Welles
'war of the worlds' tradition, with no indication at the time that it
was a hoax.  Since then, many idjits still believe it.  Of course, after
discovering that it was a hoax, the more superlative idjits trotted out
the 'double-bluff conspiracy theory' explanation saying that it was in fact
a deliberate leak.  Baloney.

MJ12 was a document apparently signed by Truman about contact between the
US Govt and the aliens.  It has been proven to be a forgery.  Again, the
true loonies don't care.  There's no arguing with people.

MJ12 (Majestic) is propounded by William Cooper, who is most
certainly a loony who is being fed this junk by the CIA via Lear.
It seems more probable (now it's my turn to spout a conspiracy theory :-) )
that Cooper has been given a *few* of the facts in the Kennedy assasination
plot.  He then weaves them into his loony aliens plot; result, if those
facts do eventually surface, they'll be completely discredited through
their prior assosciation with Cooper. An inspired and classic piece of
CIA disinformation.

G
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera
From: [e-mail] (Eric Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: GULF BREEZE and CIA/DOD Plots
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 07:00:48 GMT
References: <oecheruo.687110891@silver>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
Lines: 28

In article <oecheruo.687110891@silver> [e-mail] (Chima Echeruo) writes:
>
>What about Cheney, Collin Powel and even Carter? WHy has no former president
>mentioned the presence of UFOS to any of their families or friends?
>

Presuming that the UFO/Alien concept is true, I could see at least one
good reason why "the Authorities" have never come forward with the
story:  fear of worldwide chaos.

Some people would want to fight 'em, some would want to worship them.
Many would see that vastly superior technology (able to paralyze and
play with our offensive and defensive military systems) would render
nukes and navies and fighters moot and meaningless; there'd be no
reason to spend the gazillions of dollars on defense.  Lots of people
would be out of work (at least temporarily).  There would be a major
rethinking of what is important, and we know that conservatives don't
like the idea of change.

Most importantly, though, I think many humans would realize that the
people and institutions which currently hold the power are no longer
really the power, and those institutions (particularly those which
have oppressed and used and lied to the people) would come crashing
down.

I think *that* scares "the Authorities" more than anything else.

Eric
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera
From: [e-mail] (Eric Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Discoveries?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 07:21:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
Lines: 15
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2408 sci.skeptic:16237 sci.astro:11893 misc.headlines:18519 alt.paranormal:3351 alt.conspiracy:8062

In [e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Coffman) writes:
>With Columbus' aniversary of discovering the new world looming,

I know alot of people will probably think I'm being picky, but oh well.

The only thing that Columbus "discovered" was that he screwed up on
his way to India.  That and how easy it is submit an entire society
to slavery, pillaging and genocide when you're a brutal liar and that
society is unprepared for an invasion.

Sorry for the vitriol, people, but I'm Apache (mostly), and this
"celebration" of 500 years of the rape, torture, robbery, deceit,
relocation, annihiliation, etc. of the first inhabitants of this land
(not to mention the land itself) is insulting and crude.  Don't
intelligent people recognize that?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Good Source info available
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 02:55:29 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 45
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2409 alt.conspiracy:8063 sci.skeptic:16238


The following is a *standing offer* that this person has been making
for a few years now..you might be interested in taking his offer up.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------



Message #6725 - UFO
   Date : 15-Jun-91 13:46
   From : Ken Willoughby
     To : Rick Graham
Subject : Re: Dr. Morris Jessup
Replies : #4243 <-

        I saw your message on Jessup and Philadelphia
experiment. I have some info on it and other UFO files.
There are many questions in UFO library on 6 disks double sided
double  density 3.5 inch disks (720 kb) in .ZIP type format.
There  are about 500 files covering about 4 Megabytes of UFO
information on  everything    from recent sightings  to  the
mutilations  and  alien shenanigans.  This is  the best  UFO
info.  I  will  dub it onto the 3.5 inch disks that you send
me.  Send the above to:
KEN WILLOUGHBY
BOX 317
FAIRACRES, NEW MEXICO 88033
        I also  have a 5.25 inch drive to copy the disks but
will need about  15  of  these  disks DOUBLE SIDED    double
density (360 kilobyte).


--- Opus-CBCS 1.13
 * Origin: The Desert Dolphin WOCin New Mexico 505 523-2811 (1:305/105.0)

--- EOF ---

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: MUFON Information and Application
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 02:49:50 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 235
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2410 alt.conspiracy:8064



This is being posted for *informational* purposes only.

--------------------------------------------------------------------




                MUFON - Mutual UFO Information Network, Inc.
                ___________________________________________
                             103 Oldtowne Road
                      Seguin, Texas 78155-4099 U.S.A.

               Walter H. Andrus, Jr. - International Director
                                512-379-9216
_____________________________________________________________________________

     The Mutual UFO Network, Inc. is an international scientific organization
composed of people seriously interested in studying and researching the phe-
nomenon known as unidentified flying objects (UFO's) by combining their
mutual talents, areas of expertise and investigative efforts.  MUFON is the
acronym for the Mutual UFO Network, INC., a Texas nonprofit corporation,
exempt from Federal Income Tax under Section 501(c)(3) and a publicly
supported organization of the type described in Section 509(a)(2) of the
Internal Revenue Code.  MUFON firmly believes that a concentrated scientific
study by dedicated investigators and researchers will provide the ultimate
answer to the UFO enigma.
_____________________________________________________________________________
     Founded on May 31, 1969, MUFON's phenomenal success may be attributed to
the "grass roots" nature of the organization where a majority of the
leadership and motivation is achieved at the local level.  In North America,
a State or Provincial Director oversees the investigative activities of the
Field Investigators through State Section Directors.  An International Coor-
dinator and seven Continental Coordinators work with the Foreign Representa-
tives and National Directors in each country on the international scene.
MUFON is governed by a Board of Directors composed of 17 men and women and
administered by an Executive Committee.
_____________________________________________________________________________
     MUFON's Board of Consultants, most whom are PhDs or MDs representing 45
areas of science, technology, medicine, psychiatry, theology, engineering,
astronomy, communications, political science, photo analysis, etc., are
readily available as an advisory group to apply their expertise to UFO cases
under study and to conduct advanced research in their respective field.
_____________________________________________________________________________
     Starting in 1970, MUFON has sponsored an Annual International UFO
Symposium where world known scientists, engineers, university professors and
authors lecture on their particular specialization or contributions to
resolving this perplexing scientific dilemma.  To provide a permanent record
of the presentations, the copyrighted symposium proceedings are published
annually for worldwide distribution.
_____________________________________________________________________________
     In order that only qualified, competent and sincere people may become
involved, membership in MUFON is by invitation only.  Anyone interested in
helping to resolve the UFO phenomenon is invited to join by submitting a
membership application and appropriate dues for approval.  Based upon their
education and experience, members may serve in one or more of the following
positions:  Consultant, State or Provincial Director, State Section Director,
Foreign Representative, Field Investigator, Research Specialist, Amateur
Radio Operator, Astronomy, Field Investigator Trainee, Translator, UFO News
Clipping Service, Contributing Subscriber, or Associate Member (under 18
years of age).
_____________________________________________________________________________
     Field Investigators are trained and high standards of professionalism
are required by MUFON.  As objective, scientific researchers, MUFON Field
Investigators uphold the confidentiality of witnesses and case information.
Investigators are volunteers who conduct research at their own expense, and
attempt to document sighting information in a thorough and unbiased manner.
The third edition of the copyrighted "MUFON FIELD INVESTIGATORS MANUAL",
published in 1983, provides effective guidelines, techniques and suggestions
to members conducting UFO sighting interviews and investigations.  (The
fourth edition will be published in 1989.)
_____________________________________________________________________________
     Amateur Radio Networks, operating weekly, are utilized to receive and
disseminate UFO sighting reports and current UFO information.  The exact
date, time, and frequencies are published in the MUFON UFO JOURNAL.  A master
file, containing all submitted UFO sighting reports, arranged chronologically
by state, province, and country, is maintained in the MUFON administrative
offices.
_____________________________________________________________________________
     A twenty-four page monthly  magazine, the MUFON UFO JOURNAL is our most
significant means of sharing details of UFO sighting reports and vital
information related to the UFO phenomenon with our members throughout the
world.  A subscription to the Journal is included in the annual membership
dues of $25.00 in the U.S.A. and $30.00 in foreign countries in U.S. funds.
_____________________________________________________________________________
     For further information about joining the world's largest UFO membership
organization, please write to the address at the top of this file, or leave
me, John Komar, a message.  Along with being the SysOp of this board, I am
also MUFON State Director for Tennessee.

     We invite you to join and be a part of the solution to the greatest
mystery of the space age.
_____________________________________________________________________________



                        SUBSCRIPTION OR RENEWAL FORM

                            MUFON  UFO  JOURNAL
_____________________________________________________________________________

              OFFICIAL PUBLICATION OF MUTUAL UFO NETWORK, INC.

*****************************************************************************

     The JOURNAL has access to and publishes UFO sighting reports from all
over the world as investigated and reported by MUFON's international liaison
representatives.  It has a staff of reporters and columnists second to none
in the UFO publishing field.  Guest writers include members of MUFON's
Advisory Board of Consultants, most of whom possess doctorates in their
respective fields of expertise.

     The JOURNAL is our most significant means of sharing details of UFO
sighting reports and vital information related to the UFO phenomenon with our
members throughout the world.  The MUFON UFO JOURNAL has established itself
as the leading monthly UFO magazine in the world today.


SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION:

     A subscription to the JOURNAL is INCLUDED in the annual MUFON membership
dues of $25.00 in the U.S.A. and $30.00 in foreign countries.

FOREIGN SUBSCRIPTIONS:

     Payment of foreign membership/subscription, in U.S. funds, must be paid
by International Postal Money Order, a check written against a U.S. bank, or
cash in U.S. dollars

     Since the study of the UFO phenomenon is frequently a family affair,
additional members in the same family, that is identical home addresses, may
become members for $10.00 each when one member of the family subscribes at
the regular rate, provided they so designate when submitting their dues.  A
sample copy of the JOURNAL may be obtained for $2.50.

     If you are interested in finding out the latest on UFO's on a monthly
basis, why not join the world's fastest growing UFO organization and begin
reading the MUFON UFO JOURNAL!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                             SUBSCRIPTION BLANK

Name ____________________________________

Address _________________________________

City ____________________________________  State ____________________________

ZIP code __________________________  Country ________________________________

[  ]  Please begin or
[  ]  renew my subscription with the _________________________________ issue
      of the MUFON UFO JOURNAL

I enclose $ _____________ in U.S. funds (send cash at your own risk)

[  ] Check    [  ] Money Order   [  ] Cash

MAIL TO:        MUFON
                Mutual UFO Network, Inc.
                103 Oldtowne Road
                Seguin, Texas 78155-4099   U.S.A.



                       MUFON  Mutual UFO Network, Inc.
Annual Mem Fee: $25      APPLICATION FOR MEMBERSHIP

Name _________________________  Age ______  Occupation ______________________

Address _________________________________________  City _____________________

State ______________________  ZIP code ____________  County _________________

Country ____________________  Telephone: Home (   )______________________
                                         Work (   )______________________
Please enter your highest formal
educational level or degree _________________________________________________
Other fields of specialized training ________________________________________
Are you an Amateur Radio Operator? __________  Call Letters _________________
Do you have a Citizens Band radio? __________  Call Letters _________________
List other UFO organizations to which you belong ____________________________
What is your prime interest in the study of the UFO phenomenon? _____________
_____________________________________________________________________________
Have you concentrated your research to a category? __________________________
If so, what is your specialized field of expertise? _________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________
                                                Model of
Are you an amateur astronomer? _______________  Telescope ___________________

Considering your interest, education, experience, occupation, and available
personal time, in which capacity do you feel that you could best serve MUFON
in UFO research or investigations?

Consultant ______  State Director______  State Section Director ______
Field Investigator ______  Research Specialist ______  Astronomy ______
Contributing Subscriber ______  Amateur Radio Operator ______
UFO News Clipping Service ______  Field Investigator Trainee ______

Date ____________________  Signature ________________________________________
*****************************************************************************
Appointed to the position of ________________________________________________

and ____________________________________________  on ________________________
                                                              (date)
                                        Annual Membership
Membership Card Issued ________/______  Dues Received _______________________
                                                      (date)   (amount)
Your State Section Director is:         for: Adult [   ]  Student [   ]
_______________________________              JOURNAL Subcription  [   ]
_______________________________
_______________________________
Your State or Provincial Director:      Approved by _________________________

_______________________________                    Walter H. Andrus, Jr.
_______________________________                    International Director
_______________________________
                                                  Telephone: [phone]
Please send to:                MUFON
                               103 Oldtowne Road
                               Seguin, Texas 78155-4099
______________________________________________________________________________


EOF

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: INFO: ParaNet BBS Nodes list
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 02:58:10 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 267
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2411 alt.conspiracy:8065


The following is a listing of the ParaNet BBS nodes around the world.

---------------------------------------------------------------------



                  LIST OF PARANET INTERNATIONAL NODES
             ==============================================

  ParaNet Information Service
  Headquarters
  Michael Corbin, Administrator
  P.O. Box 928
  Wheatridge, Colorado  80034-0928
  FidoNet Address: 1:310/8
  ParaNet Private Address:  9:9/0
  =========================================================
  Don Ecker, Network Security 30163/0
  Bob Fletcher, Bureau Chief/Australian Bureau 30163/401
  Doug Rogers, Echo Moderator 30163/3
  Paul Faeder, Network Development/Coordinator 30163/203
  John Burke, ParaNet Legal Counsel 9:9/800
  =========================================================
  Please direct all inquiries to Alpha at 1:310/8 or 9:9/0




  AUSTRALIA
  ---------
  Board      Location             Sysop              Data Phone    Baud
  FIDO Add   ParaNet Address      CIS ID             Remarks
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-ALPHA   Kingsbury Vic , Australia       011-61-3-467-7984  9600
  30163/401                     Bob Fletcher  Bureau Chief
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-BETA  Mentone, Victoria, Australia      011-61-3-583-4778  2400
  30163/402                      John Marsden
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-GAMMA Launceston, Tasmania, Australia   011-61-3-44-9762   2400
  30163/403                      Roy Austen
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-DELTA Chippendale, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
  30163/404                      Lance Lyon     011-61-2-319-1793  2400
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-EPSILON   Milton, Victoria             **Temporarily Out of Service**
  30163/405                      Darren Moore
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-ZETA     Melba, A.C.T., Australia       011-61-62-587-160  2400
  30163/406                      Scott Furry
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-THETA    Dalkeith, Western Australia    011-61-9-386-2405   2400
  30163/408                      Andrew Milner
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-ETA      Lane Cove, New South Wales     011-002-428-2446    2400
  30163/407                      Grame Thompson
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-IOTA     Kendall, New South Wales       011-065-59-4537     9600
  30163/409                      John Caine
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-KAPPA    Blacktown, New South Wales     011-61-2-622-9591   2400
  30163/410                      Robert Jones
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-LAMBDA   Redfern, New South Wales       011-61-2-319-0925   2400
  30163/411                      Jodi Jackson
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-MU       Footscray, Victoria             **Private System**
  30163/412                      Ken Hayes
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMEGA-NU       Ferntree, Gully, Australia     011-61-3-758-9573   2400
  30163/413                     Lincoln Broomhall
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
  ------------------------

  Board      Location             Sysop              Data Phone    Baud
  FIDO Add   ParaNet Address      CIS ID             Remarks
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA      Cheyenne, WY       Michael Corbin       307-632-0352  9600
  30163/0                       Headquarters Node
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-BETA Cedar Rapids, IA   Peter Elliff         319-377-0134  9600
  30163/14                      Open Cluster
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-CENTAURI San Francisco, CA Rick Moen         415-648-8944  2400
  30163/25                The Skeptic's Board
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-GAMMA  Bloomington , IN  Jim Graham          812-334-0418  2400
                          Portal Dolmen BBS           **Local System**
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-DELTA   Los Angeles, CA  Don Ecker            **Private System**
  30163/22
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-EPSILON  Alexandria, VA  Steve Rose          703-823-6591  2400
  30163/26                   ABySS BBS
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-ZETA     Sacramento, CA  Boyd Naron          916-427-0324  9600
                             The City Lights
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-MU       Sacramento, CA  Dan Brown           916-446-7286  2400
                             Gates of Delirium
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-THETA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-ETA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-IOTA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-KAPPA    Pittsburgh, PA  Chuck Ammon         412-264-2692  9600

  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-LAMBDA

  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-MU       El Cajon  , CA  Don Orchard         619-440-6038  2400

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ALPHA-NU       Gilbert   , AZ  Frank Ward          602-892-1853  2400
                   The Encounter BBS
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  BETA                     ,

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  GAMMA      Lexington     , KY Doug Rogers          606-271-0558  2400
  30163/3
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  DELTA      Saskatoon     , Saskatchewan            306-934-2919  9600
  30163/4                    Canada  John Bowden
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  DELTA-ALPHA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  EPSILON    Warren        , MI Jacques Leclerc      313-751-4057  2400
  30163/5
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ZETA       Bethany Park  , IN   Terry Fields       317-831-1827  2400
  30163/6
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  KAPPA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  LAMBDA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  MU

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  NU-ALPHA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  NU-BETA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  NU-GAMMA   Cape Coral    , FL  Bill Stewart         **Out of Service*
                             Nite Connections
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  NU-DELTA   Orlando       , FL  John Hicks           407-649-4136 9600
  30163/29                   Gourmet Delight
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  NU-EPSILON Altamonte Spgs, FL  Gale Thompson        407-628-2018 2400
  30163/35                   The Business
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  XI-ALPHA   Milwaukee     , WI  Pete Porro            414-352-6176 9600
  30163/206                  Radio Free Milwaukee
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  XI-BETA    San Leandro   , CA  Cheryl Mathison       415-481-2806 2400
                                 Yellow Submarine
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  XI-GAMMA        Luther   , OK  Rod Wilson            405-277-3603 2400
  30163/204                      Paraclypse III
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  OMICRON     Bushkill     , PA  Paul Faeder           717-588-7549 9600
  30163/203
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  PI          Jersey City  , NJ  Clark Matthews        201-451-3063 2400

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  RHO         Chicago      , IL   Jerry Ablan          312-876-3652 1200
  30163/13
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  RHO-BETA    Ingleside    , IL   Jerry Callahan       312-740-2072 9600
  30163/23
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TAU

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TAU-BETA    Columbia     , MO   Brian Clark          314-442-0779 2400
                                  Thrift University BBS
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TAU-GAMMA   Chattanooga  , TN   John I. Finney       615-265-2629 9600
  30163/34                        The Old Folks Home
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TAU-CETI    Chicago      , IL   John Burke           **PRIVATE SYSTEM**
                                  ParaNet Legal Counsel
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TAU-DELTA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TAU-EPSILON

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  UPSILON

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  PHI

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  CHI        Nashua        , NH   Ralph Schwarz        603-888-3840 9600
  30163/2                         The Outpost BBS
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  CHI-BETA   Burlington    , VT   James Pallack        802-860-1875 9600
  30163/37                        We Serve Your Drives
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  PSI

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ZETA-RETICULI  Phoenix   , AZ   Jim Speiser          602-951-3431 9600
  30163/20                        USOP BBS
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

  EUROPE
  ------

  Board      Location             Sysop              Data Phone    Baud
  FIDO Add   ParaNet Address      CIS ID             Remarks
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  THETA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  IOTA

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

  GERMANY
  -------

  Board      Location              Sysop              Data Phone    Baud
  FIDO Add   ParaNet Address       CIS ID             Remarks
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  SIGMA-ALPHA  Berlin      , Germany Andre' Eichner  011-49-30-791-9269
  30163/303                                                        9600
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  SIGMA-BETA   Darmstadt   , Germany Hendrik Bohm    011-49-6257-7966
  30163/304                                                         2400
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  SIGMA-GAMMA  Berlin      , Germany Detlef Deutzer  011-30-624-98-32
  30163/305                                                         2400
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  SIGMA-DELTA  Hannover    , Germany Ernst Elbe      011-49-511-392274
                                                                    9600
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--- EOF ---


Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!chroma
From: [e-mail] (Steve Kudlak)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien names
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 09:38:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Nntp-Posting-Host: cygnus.com
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 10 Oct 91 09:21:20 GMT

And what type of mushrooms do they use... :)

HMMM, sounds like something Teerence McKenna would like...

Now I am hungry and I want a salad!!!


        Have fun,
        Sends Steve
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Alien Visitor
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 91 15:22:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano) writes:
>Isn't venus the next planet we'll populate after we destroy earth? :)

You're welcome to work on Venus if you want, but I'd think Mars would be a
little more hospitable.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Alien Visitor
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 13:53:04 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 8


>Isn't venus the next planet we'll populate after we destroy earth? :)

        I don't  think  so.    That is unless you like living in a sulfer
        dioxide atmosphere with  an  average  daily  temperature  of  850
        degrees Ferenhite

        Steve
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Harvard Crimson UFO article
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 15:28:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
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Originator: [e-mail]


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Liam Ford) writes in part:
>
> >
> >Please respond promptly, as Eryn's deadline is Saturday, Oct. 10.
> >
> Eryn's deadline is Saturday, October _12th_.  You can call the Crimson
> collect at ...

Forgive me for saying this:  Is this the way journalistic research is
done these days?  I tell you what I want to write about and wait for
people to call me to tell me what to say?  (And then, in the name of
"balance", I print it all!)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!unixhub!slacvm!doctorj
From: [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: FILE: Codex.asc - Peruvian AF encounter with Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 16:33:19 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
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[e-mail] (Doug S. Caprette Bldg. 28 W191 x3892) says:

> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:

>> [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler) writes:

>> I have spent the last few months posting numerous articles and the only
>> ... (much deleted)
>> it or not..I don't care) until I,along with 2 others had a Close
>> Encounter in 1974, in Albuquerque,NM. This sighting lasted for 10 min.,
>> was *very* close and thereafter convinced me that "there's something
>> to all this UFO "nonsense".

My reputation is at stake.  I (Jon Thaler) am not the same person as Don
Allen.  Thank god!  The quote above is incorrectly attributed to me.  It
was actually posted by Don Allen, or some other cyberspace entity.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!ra!cee1
From: [e-mail] (Charles Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: GULF BREEZE and CIA/DOD Plots
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 16:31:40 GMT
References: <oecheruo.687110891@silver> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 29

KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) writes:

>In <oecheruo.687110891@silver> [e-mail] writes:

>> What about the possibility that UFOs do not really exist and that the governmen
>> t sponsored dis-information programs that led citizens to believe that aliens
>> existed and that they could possibly  invade earth.  This could in turn provide
>> broad support for the US space program, anti-communist propagander and a
>> general fear in the population.

>   Why would a government need to decieve a population that goes to such
>extremes to decieve itself?

Panic, fright, overthrow, riots, anarchy.

It would freak everyone.

--

 +----------------------------------------\\         -------------
 |  Internet: [e-mail]     __o   \\    --------------------
 |  Bitnet:   [e-mail]     \<,    >>   Jesus Christ is Lord
 |  Identity: Charles Edward Evans  ()/ ()  //    --------------------
 +----------------------------------------//         --------------

  "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call HERESY,
   so worship I the God of my fathers, BELIEVING ALL THINGS which are
   WRITTEN in the law and in the prophets."
                                               -- Acts 24:14
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!news!noc.near.net!news.cs.brandeis.edu![e-mail]
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Discoveries?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 16:23:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Brandeis University
Lines: 11

My sympathy is all yours. I agree and understand what you feel
completely. I come from a society where people are having to
realize they have no more right over the land than the Indians.
I was brought up in Brazil where the problem with Indians and
tribes dying out is coming more out into the open. Yes, manytribes have vanished since the 1500's but many haven't even been discovered yet,
never have they even been exposed to society as it is now. Fortunately
my country's Indians have more right and means of communication
which can help their cause and all the support from awareness which
came from, unfortunately, the suffering of other Indigenous tribes.
Take care!
A.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!acsu.buffalo.edu!ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu!opnsgreg
From: [e-mail] (GREGORY J. SCHAFFER)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: GULF BREEZE and CIA/DOD Plots
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 19:37:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University at Buffalo
Lines: 9
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Nntp-Posting-Host: ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter R. Cook) writes...
>
>    They have. I also must mention that the security clearance needed
>    to gain access to this type of information is beyond the highest
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    level.
    ^^^^^^

Uh...is this anything like infinity plus one???
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!apple!rutgers!rochester!cornell!batcomputer!theory.TC.Cornell.EDU!homer
From: [e-mail] (Homer Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: CHANNELING TRANSCRIPTS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 91 02:09:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Lines: 249
Nntp-Posting-Host: theory.tc.cornell.edu








                         CHANNELING TRANSCRIPTS

             Editing Copyright (C) 1991 Homer Wilson Smith
                          All Rights Reserved

     World distribution rights granted for non commercial purposes.


     Editor's Note:

     The following material was sent to me in September of 1989.  I
wanted to post it to the net but held back for many reasons until
recently.  There seems to be an audience for this stuff, possibly even a
needful audience, so here it is.

     The original was a live session recorded by J.J. and transcribed by
her to paper.  I received a Xerox along with her introductory letter.
Her letter and the transcripts were scanned into a Mac with an Apple
Scanner, transferred over to a mainframe, edited there to correct
spelling and scanner errors, and formatted in a readable form.  It was
split into 12 parts and posted to the net.

     Remember that you can have direct awareness of Immortality, past
lives, whole track and that the universe is made of consciousness and
not matter, energy space and time and still think that all this
channeling stuff is a bunch of Malarkey.  Where there is true magic,
there are lots of beings pretending to have magic when they don't.

     You don't have to believe every word you hear or read, this posting
is no exception.  Belief is for losers.  Only Perfect Certainty is of
any worth.  Those who are certain they can't be certain of anything are
lost.  For they are no longer self aware or aware of their
consciousness.  Self awareness and awareness of consciousness ARE
CERTAINTY and provide a standard for certainty.  Anything less that 100
percent pure perfect certainty is belief and self delusion.

     Human beings are a composite of many beings, many smaller ones
called elementals, and many larger ones for each of the senses.  There
is of course the primary controlling being (YOU), the fallen angel so to
speak who is inhabiting the body and calling it HIM or HER.  Silly.  You
are IN a body, you are not a body.  Imagine someone driving around going
'I AM a car!'.  You would lock him up immediately.  Or send him to a
planetary insane asylum like Earth.

     When a being dies, this composite of beings splits up and disperses
to many different sites.  Many of them keep traces of the personalities
they have been through the ages, especially the last life they were
involved in.  They can operate through other people while in the
inbetween lives state, but they get most of their power from their host
and most of their knowledge from the forgotten knowledge and whole track
memory of their HOST.  Thus the dumber the being they talk through, the
dumber their discourse.  They also often claim to be people that we all
know, when in reality they were only visiting members in that being's
composite vehicle during his life.  Thus they can echo the fallen
angel's wisdom and knowledge but they really don't have it.  And they
can't use it anew.  You can teach a monkey to drive a car, but you can't
teach him to fix a car or design a new one.

     Monkey see, monkey do.  Entity see, entity do.

     Sometimes an entity is a really big and powerful sort, sometimes
even a lower level Deity or Demon, beings who have huge amounts of
power, but little freedom as they are bounded by Law to their duties in
the hierarchy of the Gods.  These beings often know what they are
talking about and can scare the bejeezus out of you with their power.

     It is even possible that you might find a true fallen angel
channeling through someone's body, but I will tell you right now, any
fallen angle worth his salt would be very much in a hurry to get a new
body and get on with his work.  He usually would not be hanging around
between lives talking through others.  He would leave this up to the
elemental beings who have some time to spend before they gather together
again for the incarnation of another real fallen angel.

     There are Gods and Devils, Angels and Demons, and there are lots
and lots of elementals, zillions of them, and there are Fallen Angels.
Fallen angels are VERY advanced.  And VERY decayed.  Their highest
thoughts are an abomination in the sight of God.  You know, sex, money,
school, beer, pot etc.  They have lost most of their power through mis-
use and failed and refused confession, but they have tremendous freedom
and actually are on their way out of this universe, on their way to a
higher state and higher post than any of the others.  If they make it
that is, many will decay so a much lower level, sub human level, before
they start the long ascent up again.   All make it one day.

    Death and decay are inherent in all compound things, seek ye
diligently, therefore thy salvation.  -Lord Buddha.

     Consciousness is not compound, thus it can not die.  Projections in
consciousness ARE compound and can pass away as fast as you can imagine
them out of existence.  Unless of course you are holding on to one
because you think you ARE one.  In which case you have an interesting
mortal joy ride ahead of you.

     Life is a holodeck.  The mechanism is NOT OUT THERE!  The mechanism
that provides the projection is inside us all and is called SOURCE.
From this springs God, Gods, Devils, Angels, Demons, elementals,
universes (projections) and Fallen Angels.

    Me and thee are Fallen Angels.  Most Fallen Angels believe
themselves to have lived but once and are Mortal, being made of the meat
they think they are.  Boy are they wrong.  But there is no telling a
rising (or sinking!) God the truth.

     Mainly they don't remember CHOOSING to take on a body before it was
conceived and when they do, they aren't too sure they want to continue
to remember.  It helps to have a confessor around.  A 12th degree Master
would be nice.  But if all you got is your neighbor or your girlfriend,
that will do.

     Mainly they don't remember CHOOSING to FORGET.  What can I say, you
want proof?  Right.  What proof did you leave behind you now?  You
closed the door and threw away the key.  Someone else may have to hand
it back to you.

     I will tell you the key.  The WAY IN is the WAY OUT.

     Your memory is like a door.  You slam the door closed and wonder
why you can't pull it open again.  If you push it closed MORE, the way
you did the first time, it will start to open and you will remember why
you closed it in the first place.

     Its like your CAPS LOCK button.  You push it down once and it stays
down.  You try to pull it up you get nowhere.  You push it down again
and it comes up.  Your memory works the same way.  Replication of the
effort to forget will open the memory up.  Don't waste your time looking
for proof.  DO IT.  When it works you will know it is right.  Not
before.

     Anyhow, there IS proof, but you can't shove it down someone's
throat who totally doesn't want it.  You know, Sceptics and company.

     They have to find it out for themselves along the path they
themselves set up eons ago.  It is a matter of courage, majesty and
foresight.  There is great wisdom in their path, and PERFECTION, no
matter how dumb it may seem to us now.  The dumbest drunk is a God in
drunk's clothing.  Spit not on the down trodden, as you will be doing
what they did, and may become as they have become, when you come around
to caring again.

     So anyhow you can take this channeling stuff with a grain of salt.
The message is clear even if immature.  You probably can discount claims
that Napoleon is talking though, as the elemental is just having fun
with you.   Listen with your Heart, not with your Mind.  If you must
listen with your Mind, do it right.

     Love is something you give, not something you get.  You feel love
because you are giving it, not because you are getting it.  You are
unhappy around others not because they don't love you but because they
won't let you love them, the way you need to love them to live and to
grow.

     The answer is to rearrange your reality a bit, get your slate
squeaky clean with a THOROUGH WHOLE TRACK CONFESSION, and continue to
love no matter what.  It's not a problem with God, why is it a problem
with you?

     May the Lord of Light be with you.

     Homer Wilson Smith, Ithaca, 10/11/91




                          PARTS 1 and 2 of 12.

September 4, 1989

     Dear Friends,

     Enclosed you will find a copy of a transcript of a taped channeling
I attended in August.  The person doing the channeling is Marilyn
Rossner, who is known throughout Canada and the US and probably other
countries as well for her channeling work.  She and her husband John, an
ordained episcopal priest, travel extensively and have quite broad
impact.  This was my first occasion to experience her 'deep trance
channeling'.  I have been present at many channelings by others, but
found this one to be quite different.  Most of the channelings I have
observed have been through a 'partnership', if you will, one 'channel'
or receptive person in cooperation with a non-physical entity with whom
they have worked for some period of time.  This usually results in an
easy flow of material, of varying levels of quality.  'Higher' levels of
material tend to be of a universal nature and are typically filled with
much love content and are easily seen to be 'spiritual'.  Less 'high'
material tends to be oriented to the 'personality' level and gives
direction to individuals regarding their earth lives.  This also may be
of 'high' quality or not depending on the the level of the entity who
'comes through'.

     The person channeling may or may not be aware of the material
and/or the entity who comes through.

     In Marilyn's case, she shared with us that she is 'asleep' while
she is awake, or in other words, she goes out of her body and other
entities are able to use her body to communicate helpful information.
She has been involved in this work since she was 4 years old, which is
another story.  Anyway, she makes her body/communication vehicle
available for spiritual beings for the purpose of giving information
which they believe is helpful for us to know.  Because she works with
various entities, and because some of these entities are quite powerful
and possibly unused to working with humans, the energy that flows
through her body is quite powerful, causing physical movement as well as
very loud vocalizations.  Also, the entity must use her vocabulary and
therefore sometimes struggles to find appropriate words to communicate
the message.  In this case, the message came through in a somewhat
choppy, syllable by syllable style, which made listening very strained
and difficult.  When I returned home and wished to share the information
with selected others, I decided to transcribe the tape in order that the
content be more readily grasped and understood.  This, of course,
results in loss of some of the emotional impact that would be received
by listening to the tape.

     A couple of final words.  I did not transcribe her introductory
remarks, or the invocation/prayers she offers before she begins.  The
first entity is followed by 'Daisy', the spirit of a six year old
American Indian child who died many years ago, and who is always with
Marilyn, and whom Marilyn calls her 'joy-guide'.  As you read that part,
remember that it is a child speaking.  Daisy refers to Marilyn as
'Mommy'.  The last part occurs after Daisy has left and Marilyn is back
in her body.  Apparently, according to some of my friends who have seen
Marilyn channel several times, she typically offers a benediction after
she returns, and then the evening is over.  However, following the
benediction she begins to see some visions and receives some messages in
a waking state, and shares them with the group as well.  If you have
questions, please feel free to write or call and I will try to answer
them for you.

     I probably don't need to add that I encourage you to share the
information where you feel it will go the farthest in preparing those
who can serve in some positive, enlightened leadership role as the
changes take place.  It is important that we all do our parts to further
cooperative living in peace.


Blessings, Love, and Light,

                       J.J.
--
Homer Wilson Smith  [e-mail]
'The Paths of Lovers Cross in the Line of Duty.'
'The Purpose of Creation is to Trade in Expressions of Discovery.'
'Class is an attitude, that ALL should live forever and be my friend.'
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re:  mysterious British deaths
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 14:15:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2421 alt.conspiracy:8084

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Fibre Optics) writes:
>These people mainly worked for GEC/Marconi and the latest one is the
>most interesting. He'd applied for two patents on `Stardrives' shortly
>before he was found, in a lake tied to something heavy. If you die
>before your patent is granted, your patent dies with you.

That wasn't quite the way I heard it, but it certainly is interesting.

I had originally heard that he had been granted the patents (I think I even
have the numbers somewhere) but they had been revoked or something.  I was
told that the MOD does this when they want to take control of a patent.

Do you have any idea what the patents covered?    Someone recently mentioned
to me that they were for an "inertia-less" system.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re:  mysterious British deaths
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 14:22:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2422 alt.conspiracy:8085

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>What is MJ-12/Alternative 3  ?

Actually, I shouldn't have mentioned MJ-12 by name because I haven't heard
any allegations specifically naming it, just vague suggestions that
something was going on regarding aliens.  But MJ-12 is an alleged
top-secret group conspiring to keep the aliens that are visiting (or taking
over) the Earth a secret from the public.  Alternative 3 is another bizarre
conspiracy theory about moving the human race to Mars.    Neither of them
seems to have much credibility.  MJ-12 might be a hoax, and Alternative 3
might just have been a science fiction story that got out of hand.

>BTW, Dousing one's car with petrol and driving full speed into a brick wall
>doesn't seem too scientific to me.

I agree.  At least a few of the suicides were bizarre, but very few were
scientific.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: GULF BREEZE and CIA/DOD Plots
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 15:19:35 GMT
References: <oecheruo.687110891@silver>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 40

In article <oecheruo.687110891@silver> [e-mail] (Chima Echeruo) writes:
>I am new to this newsgroup. I have recently read a book about the Gulf Breeze
>incidents. The book provided very convincing evidence that UFO's exist.

What was it about the book that was so convincing?  I'm trying to keep an
open mind about the Gulf Breeze case, but Ed Walters's credibility doesn't
look too good sometimes.

>I would like to know what has become of the couple (Walter & Frances)?

As far as I know, nothing has "become of" them, aside from the fact that
they must be making an awful lot of money from their book.

>On a second note, many theories have been advanced as to the reason for US govt
>coverups of UFO's.
>
>What about the possibility that UFOs do not really exist and that the governmen
>t sponsored dis-information programs that led citizens to believe that aliens
>existed and that they could possibly  invade earth.  This could in turn provide
>broad support for the US space program, anti-communist propagander and a
>general fear in the population.

Although the idea that the government is spreading the alien stories to
control the people is interesting on the surface, the actual effect of the
stories seems to be to convince people that the government is not to be
trusted.  If it was originally a propaganda plan, I wonder why they
continued it when they saw its effect?

My view is that some of the UFOs do exist, and if there's a government
disinformation campaign it's to keep the UFOlogy field confused enough that
they don't discover what they are.  Whether the government already knows
what they are or not is open to debate.  But there's still the nagging
question of why would the government spread information which makes people
believe that the government is not to be trusted?

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: COSMOS 955 - Space Shuttle Displacer and Former UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 18:05:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 71

This article is taken from sci.space and sci.space.shuttle:

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Larry Klaes) writes:
>
>     Remember that Soviet booster which the Space Shuttle DISCOVERY
>    had to avoid on September 15 during its STS-48 mission to deploy
>    the Upper Atmospheric Research Satellite (UARS)?  I did a little
>    reading on the COSMOS 955 satellite this rocket placed in Earth
>    orbit and found out that this Soviet mission has been making the
>    news since its launch in 1977.
>
>     In the 1987 book GUARDIANS: STRATEGIC RECONNAISSANCE SATELLITES,
>    by Curtis Peebles (Presidio Press, Novato, CA), on pages 227-229,
>    the author details what happened when COSMOS 955 lifted off into
>    the predawn sky from the Soviet Union's "secret" military space
>    center, Plesetsk, on September 20, 1977:
>
>     "As the A-1 booster climbed, it left...Earth's shadow.  The
>    exhaust plume from the twenty engines was backlit by the Sun.  From
>    the ground, which was still in darkness, the now-illuminated exhaust
>    plume looked like a huge, jellyfish-shaped apparition slowly moving
>    through the night sky.  The weather over northern Russia was clear,
>    so early risers in Leningrad, Estonia, and as far west as Finland
>    saw the plume (Moscow was clouded over).  Nikolay Milov, a local Tass
>    correspondent in the city of Petrozavodsk, wrote up a brief account
>    of an 'unusual natural phenomenon observed in Karelia.'  Two days
>    later, the report was sent out over the international wires.  Soon,
>    American newspapers were filled with accounts of the 'jellyfish UFO'
>    seen over Russia."
>
>     Some Western Soviet space experts, such as James Oberg, were quick
>    to make the connection between the UFO and the September 20 launch.
>    Unfortunately, his reports did not reach the general populace of the
>    Soviet Union, where its UFO buffs blew the incident all out of propor-
>    tion.  Soviet officials were stuck between denouncing the UFO reports
>    and trying not to admit to the existence of Plesetsk, even though it
>    was known to most of the West since 1966.
>
>     Several other launches after COSMOS 955 also made similar UFOs
>    in the sky, increasing the UFO stories and further frustrating the
>    government.  For a while Soviet authorities even tried to pass off
>    the rocket exhaust plumes as natural phenomenon.  Finally, to stop
>    the erroneous reports, the Soviets admitted to the Plesetsk space
>    facility in 1983 in their PRAVDA newspaper, while avoiding any
>    mention of its military aspects.
>
>     COSMOS 955 was a member of the Heavy ELINT (ELectronic INTelli-
>    gence) class of Soviet satellites.  As an interesting side note, its
>    immediate predecessor, COSMOS 954 (launched September 18, 1977),
>    became infamous for entering Earth's atmosphere on January 24, 1978,
>    and spreading debris from its nuclear reactor across Canada.  Had
>    COSMOS 954 lasted one more orbit, it would have entered over New York
>    City.  The satellite was a member of the Soviet nuclear-powered ocean
>    surveillance program.
>
>     Larry Klaes  [e-mail]
>             or - ...!decwrl!mtwain.enet.dec.com!klaes
>             or - [e-mail]
>              or - [e-mail]
>
>          "All the Universe, or nothing!" - H. G. Wells
>
>     EJASA Editor, Astronomical Society of the Atlantic

CC: ParaNet UFO Echo

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!cc.helsinki.fi!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Pleiadian Transcripts questions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 91 14:15:46 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Uutis Ankka)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 31





OK, I'm new to the newsgroup, but I've read some of the Transcripts
and it strike me that they suffer from the same kind of problems
all the channelled messages I've heard suffer from:

a) They talk about cosmic peace, love etc.  and these are all
worthy things to pursue.  How do we know that their concept
of these rather subjective ideals are the same as ours? We don't
know what joy and happiness mean to them.

b) They all use a sort of mystical, sub-old-testament language.
Why? To add intellectual credibility?  Surely if these messages
are channelled through a 20th century person, the messages would
come out in 20th century American English.  Why would they want
to sound pompous and/or ridiculous if they want us to take their
messages seriously?

c) They're not very specific are they?  If they only want to get
in touch with us to tell us to be good to each other and prepare
for some unknown day of judgement etc.  why bother? We all know
we should be nice to each other, but we're not.  If they don't
have anything new to say (which they don't seem to) why go through
all the hassle of this message transmission?

Anyway, just thoughts.  If anyone has good answers to these
points, I'd be very interested.

Jason
Path: ns-mx!uunet!verifone.com!kent_f1
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 91 03:25:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: VeriFone Inc., Honolulu HI
Lines: 34
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2426 sci.skeptic:16278

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>
>      Back in the 1970 s I was a civilian electronics instructor at Treasure
> Island, calif.  While passing out some books about UFO s to some of my
> students  before going to classes a fellow instructor heard  what I was saying
> to my students.
>     Later that night he was working at a second job fixing a lady;s T.V. set
> and told her what I has been saying and how stupid he thought I was.  She then
> told him that he shouldn t have made fun of what I was saying, it was the
> truth and she was from Venus herself.   She had been brought here when she was
> two years old and had been raised by Earth people.  He didn t believe her and
> asked why she would come to Earth if she was from Venus.  She then said that
> she  was brought here from Venus for the same reason that we sometimes send
> our children go to Europe, it s for our education. She then informed him they
> on Venus are more advanced than we are on Earth.  He then said  If your so far
> advanced why don t you came down here and make slaves of us ?  Lady; We are
> not interested in that.. We aren t allowed to interfere.
>      He never did believe her so she nearly threw him out of the house.  The
> teacher told me about his experience.
>   I contacted the lady and she did stick with her original story.
>     That s all for now.
>   John.
>
>      Don is posting this through his account for me.  I am not Don, and Don is
> not me.      John.


************************

Holy cow, beam me up Scotty.

It's unfortunate that even one byte us polluted with crapola like this.
John: Do me a favor. Please go get that lady and go on back to Venus....
or is her spacecraft broken?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!phad.hsc.usc.edu!dyett
From: [e-mail] (Donald Yett)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 91 07:08:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <snmc=[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 37
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16279 alt.alien.visitors:2427
Nntp-Posting-Host: phad.hsc.usc.edu

In article <snmc=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chris Faehl CIRT) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
>>We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we
>>had previously dropped on at Los Alamos.
>                              ^^^^^^^^^^
>Whoa. Halt. Back-up. Erase.
>Nuclear Weapons were never dropped upon Los Alamos, although they were
>developed there. Further, even at Trinity Site, they were never 'dropped'.
>FYI, Los Alamos is perhaps 12-15 miles straight line distance from Santa Fe,
>and 45-55 miles straight line from Albuquerque. Now, if *you* were trying to
>develop a nuclear device in complete secrecy, would *you* want to light up
>the skies like that?
>
>Sorry, this didn't really have anything to do with anything. It's just it's
>so easy to get Anal Retentive on Usenet...
>
>CF

Whoa! Halt! Back-up! Erase!

No nukes were dropped upon anywhere but Hiroshima & Nagkasaki..

The trinity site test was done in ALAMAGORDO, NM and was done with the weapon
perched on the top of a structure somewhat like an antenna tower...  Please
check both your history and your maps...

And to think that you are going to UNM!  Take a hike up Central Ave to Kirtland
AFB (or hop on the bus), and they have an Atomic Energy museum run by Sandia
Labs (or at least did the last time I was living there in late-89/early-90)..



--
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
| [e-mail]  | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed,
|   Just my opinions!     | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!phad.hsc.usc.edu!dyett
From: [e-mail] (Donald Yett)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: More on Crop Circles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 91 08:41:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 17
Nntp-Posting-Host: phad.hsc.usc.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David M. Schiff) writes:
>
>4) This past summer, Japanese researchers cordoned off a field with
>   burglar detection equipment over night.  The next morning when the
>   fog lifted there was a "circle" in the field. Infrared detectors
>   didn't detect any bodies in the field.
>

Do you have any more information on this?  I would really like to know how
they were forwarned (if THEY didn't make it themselves) as to the time and
place of the circle.

--
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
| [e-mail]  | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed,
|   Just my opinions!     | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!blekko!anuurn!ffoire
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Orrok)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 91 05:58:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: the Hani homeworld. (Wilmette, IL)
Lines: 23

KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) writes:
> In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
> > subatomic diameters.  If it was a black hole, it would have passed
> > right through the Earth, and out the other side.  Presumably, it's
> > velocity was low enough that it wasn't captured.

LOW enough???

>     There is one piece of evidence to support this. At the same time on the
> opposite side of the globe, a sea captain reported seeing a huge spout of
> water towering into the sky.  An extremely dense object passing through the
> earth would be likely to pull some material along with it at the exit point.

How convenient, another poster said there should have been a waterspout, and
bing! we get a waterspout sighting.  Let's go for 2 out of 2: I say there
should be a reference for this sea captain claim...

je<FF>
--
If you can't trust people to govern themselves,
why would you ever trust them to govern others?
-- [e-mail] -- [e-mail] -- [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: CHANNELING TRANSCRIPTS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 91 15:58:55 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 11

Homer posted channeled material, etc.

Homer:  What is a 12th degree Master, can you supply me with
a definition?  And can you give me information as to what
constitutes the first 11 degrees?

Thank you.

Kathy

Talking wisdom is much easier than living it.  --Hazrat Inayat Khan
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Pleiadean Transcript questions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 91 16:09:18 GMT
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 51

Jason (of Helsinki?) posts questions about channeled material,
etc.:

Jason:  I have spent a number of years investigating and having
contact with people who give readings, do trance channeling, etc.
It is my own personal experience that some of the information
MIGHT be right on target, while other information/etc. that comes
out is misleading and can lead a person down a garden path...or
whatever.

I do think/believe that SOME people who channel do carry the light
and are gifted to help others who come to them.  I think there is
possibility also that what they are channeling entities or beings
from within their own multiple worlds in their own being (it may
only appear to look as if it is coming from an outer being).

There are myriads of universes and thoughts that permeate...but
my opinion at this time: the proof is in the pudding.  How does
the channeler him/herself live?  Are their fruits love?  Or is
there love of money, power, whatever?

Consciousness is every where...and when one makes an 'opening' he
or she can contact myriads of beings who may not be so pure or
either of the light.  Discernment is something to always be aware
of, and a prayer for protection cannot harm.

Some people's motivations in channeling may be suspect, also.  I
know a woman who felt she was channeling Mother Mary and there are
countless others who feel they are channeling Jesus.  The person
that I know who channels feel that the energy of a being as powerful
and radiant as Jesus would burn him...so I can not help but conclude
that those who make claims of channeling real high beings may be
involved in glamour (read Alice Bailey's book on GLAMOUR: A WORLD
PROBLEM).

The sufis speak of the stations of the soul, and one of the first
ones is the station of the ego.  The whole idea is to purify the
ego (nafs) so that one may eventually go into the station of Divine
Union.  I suspect that many channelers may be in the station of ego
and have touched their own divinity/awakening...but then the appetite
of nafs takes over..and well, you know, what can happen.

These are just some of my thoughts.  I always say:  take the baby
and throw out the bath water. Of, another one:  if it helps you, use
it.

But try to keep your balance through it all...

Kathy

Time and space are but the divisions of the infinite - Hazrat Inayat Khan
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!ra!Isis.MsState.Edu!ewf2
From: [e-mail] (Eric Fritzius)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: GULF BREEZE and CIA/DOD Plots
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 91 18:40:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 17
Nntp-Posting-Host: isis-gw.msstate.edu

[e-mail] (GREGORY J. SCHAFFER) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter R. Cook) writes...
>>
>>    They have. I also must mention that the security clearance needed
>>    to gain access to this type of information is beyond the highest
>                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>    level.
>    ^^^^^^

I don't think I would want to meet someone with a security clearance
that high.  I don't think it  would be too healthy to know someone
like that.

JSA
ewf
(Just use the drive-through)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Siberian space catastrophe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 91 20:29:41 GMT
References: <1991Oct6.191302.9403@anasaz> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>> Another theory (I think in Science News), is that it was a small
>> quantum black hole.  These are black holes created about the time of
>> the Big Bang, and can be of substellar mass.  Such a black hole could
>> range from mere atoms of mass up to any size.  As it happens, black
>> holes this small tend to evaporate, smaller ones evaporating faster.
>> So there is a lower limit on the size of the black hole.  It still
>> could be of a mass of a planetoid and still be quite small, about
>> subatomic diameters.  If it was a black hole, it would have passed
>> right through the Earth, and out the other side.  Presumably, it's
>> velocity was low enough that it wasn't captured.
>
>    There is one piece of evidence to support this. At the same time on the
>opposite side of the globe, a sea captain reported seeing a huge spout of
>water towering into the sky.  An extremely dense object passing through the
>earth would be likely to pull some material along with it at the exit point.
>

References please?   Anyone know what a quantum black hole would really
do anyway?  It's velocity would be pretty high.  If it didn't have
escape velocity (~11 km/h) it would be captured into Earth orbit, which
it probably wasn't unless it's still orbiting deep inside the Earth.
Given that speed, could it have pulled much water along with it?
In any case, what would the real effects be?
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm\!uwmcsd4\!anthony
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!ptimtc!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: UFO Conference Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 91 21:44:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 25
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2434 sci.skeptic:16286
Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>       This information has been posted by Don Showen  for John Winston.
>>     One of the speakers I video taped in the Phoenix UFO Conference was
>>William Hamilton.  He had a lot to say about the underground experimental
>>bases that are located around Palmdale and Tehachapi, Calif, where some of our
>>major aircraft companies are working with  aliens to produce space craft.
>>They are so bold as to fly a boomerang shaped space craft right over downtown
>>Palmdale. There is a rumor that our government is planning to release this
>
>So someone's flying a boomerang-shaped craft around California.  Does that
>make it alien?

Of COURSE someone's flying a boomerang-shaped craft around California.  Haven't
either of you seen photos of the stealth fighter and the stealth bomber?
They're both flying wings (i.e., boomerang-shaped).  And guess where they build
them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!rochester!cornell!batcomputer!theory.TC.Cornell.EDU!homer
From: [e-mail] (Homer Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: CHANNELING TRANSCRIPTS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 91 03:34:05 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Lines: 51
Nntp-Posting-Host: theory.tc.cornell.edu


     Having given the matter some thought I have decided to post the
MARILYN TRANSCRIPTS to talk.repligion.newage as that seems to be a more
appropriate forum for this material than alt.alien.visitors.

     Actually I am surprised that previous channeling transcripts made
it into this forum.

     I suspect that those of you who are interested in this kind of stuff
probably also read talk.religion.newage and those of you who aren't
interested, don't.

     As a wild outlier you might consider the idea that alien space
craft coming to Earth are not the result of some long overdue contact
between unknown cultures, but that Earth is in fact created and
maintained by a conglomerate of alien cultures living closer
to the center of the galaxy.  Ever have dreams where the night
sky is just FILLED with stars and galaxies?

     It has been suggested by many people, all of whom I am sure
have no credibility at all, that Earth is actually a spiritual
repository for beings from all these other cultures who were either
too criminal, perverted, artistic or intelligent to fit into the
rather slavish and spiritually unenlightened cultures that did not
want them.  So they were sent to Earth between lives.

     During past track regression it has been reported that some
people finally remember not only past lives, but BEFORE EARTH.

     The societies that these people come from are invariably advanced,
but not so advanced as to be unrecognizable, and some of them have
in recent times blown themselves to Kingdom Come with atomics.  Ever
have dreams of atomic war or post apocalyptic societies?

     It has also been suggested that much of the technological advancement
that has taken place on Earth in the past 200 years is solely due to
an influx of new beings (me and thee) from these other worlds who
subconsciously are remembering technology that acutally took
10's of thousands of years to discover the first time.  I am not talking
about aliens working behind the scenes, the suggestion is that you ARE
the aliens who having been sent to Earth because you were not wanted,
have called it home and started a new.

     Well as I said, zero credibility, but if it's true it might
ring a bell if you have any bells left to ring.

--
'The Paths of Lovers Cross in the Line of Duty.'
'The Purpose of Creation is to Trade in Expressions of Discovery.'
'Class is an attitude, that ALL should live forever and be my friend.'
'Cool is the ability to maintain Class.'
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!brolga!eric
From: [e-mail] (Eric Halil)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: GULF BREEZE and CIA/DOD Plots
Message-ID: <eric.687327477@brolga>
Date: 13 Oct 91 04:17:57 GMT
References: <oecheruo.687110891@silver> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Prentice Centre, University of Queensland
Lines: 31
Nntp-Posting-Host: brolga.cc.uq.oz.au

[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>[e-mail] (Chima Echeruo) writes:
>>I am new to this newsgroup. I have recently read a book about the Gulf Breeze
>>incidents. The book provided very convincing evidence that UFO's exist.

>What was it about the book that was so convincing?  I'm trying to keep an
>open mind about the Gulf Breeze case, but Ed Walters's credibility doesn't
>look too good sometimes.

I just finished reading the book yesterday and would be interested in
discussing it.  The most "convincing" part (and impressive) was the
photographic evidence (heaps of it, including the video).

Unless the photographic experts mentioned in the book have since been
discredited I'd see this as one of the most impressive pieces of
evidence.  From my reading it seemed that it would have been extremely
hard to fake the photos.  Especially the video.  Admittedly, this is
based entirely on testimony presented in the book, but I didn't see any
obvious flaws in the reasoning (on a first reading anyway).

This backed up with what I found a plausible background story and the
Walters' full help with the investigation.

What's the problem with Ed's credibility?

Please note that the only info I have on Gulf Breeze is the book itself
(which might be a bit biased :-)  If anyone can point me to other independent
sources I'd be grateful.  Has the "Skeptical Inquirer" had anything to say?

Comments,
Eric ([e-mail]).
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ukc!edcastle!aifh!cam
From: [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 91 20:50:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm)
Organization: Dept AI, Edinburgh University, Scotland
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (carol zarbock) writes:

>#2--I find it inconceivable that aliens, if they are in fact
>visiting our planet, would even consider contacting us in
>this fashion.

It is quite clear from all the reports of alien visitors that these
aliens are really stupid, the extra-terrestial equivalent of American
tourists abroad demanding burgers and cokes and wondering how the local
kids manage to speak a foreign language so well. Because of our low
technology and lack of interstellar diplomatic status it's probably very
cheap to get a weekend self-catering return to the Solar System. Nick a
few turnips from a Brazilian peasant, take a few steaks from a Texas
cow, and after chugging a few beers have some fun kidding the local
"intelligent" lifeform.
--
Chris Malcolm    [e-mail]   [phone] x2550
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!unlinfo.unl.edu!czarbock
From: [e-mail] (carol zarbock)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 91 16:20:11 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Lines: 17

#1--I do not believe in channeling as is popularly
conceived.

#2--I find it inconceivable that aliens, if they are in fact
visiting our planet, would even consider contacting us in
this fashion.  Our technology and sciences are so far
advanced over our abilities as telepaths, it makes no sense.
 Surely, an intelligence that could contact us would be
intelligent enough to give the message through a source we
would best comprehend.  Yes?

If they are more advanced that us, they would certainly
realize that humans are ineffective telepaths...at least for
now.

Regards,
Carol
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
From: [e-mail] (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Discoveries?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 91 17:47:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group
Lines: 43

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) writes:
>In [e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Coffman) writes:
>>With Columbus' aniversary of discovering the new world looming,
>
>I know alot of people will probably think I'm being picky, but oh well.
>
>The only thing that Columbus "discovered" was that he screwed up on
>his way to India.  That and how easy it is submit an entire society
>to slavery, pillaging and genocide when you're a brutal liar and that
>society is unprepared for an invasion.

Which of the literally hundreds of societies who had been busy practicing
slavery, pillage, and genocide in the New World long before Columbus and
friends showed up would you be referring to?

>Sorry for the vitriol, people, but I'm Apache (mostly), and this
>"celebration" of 500 years of the rape, torture, robbery, deceit,
>relocation, annihiliation, etc. of the first inhabitants of this land
>(not to mention the land itself) is insulting and crude.  Don't
>intelligent people recognize that?

The white man's invasion of the Americas is only the last of a long
line of invasions, the previous ones coming from Asia. Do you believe
that the Apache was the *first* inhabitant of the Americas? Sure the
Europeans were better organized and did a massive job on the existing
peoples of the Americas, but you can't represent the previous invaders
as angelic pastorial peoples. The Europeans were following a global
pattern of conquest that had prevailed for thousands of years. They
were no more, or less, noble about it than Attila the Hun, or generations
of Aztecs. They just had better weapons and organization. If we have
to be morally outraged by what our ancestors, of all colors and races,
did, then we must be more even handed in apportioning the blame.

Columbus discovered the Americas for the Europeans. Though some
Viking was probably here first, he didn't have a good PR man.
Some particular Apache discovered America for the Apaches, but
we don't have any written records of his name. Some forebearer
of the Aztecs and Incas discovered America too, but we don't
know his name either. According to current theory, everybody
came out of Africa about 200,000 years ago and is a descendant
of *some* invader of *some* land.

Gary
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 91 18:40:28 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 27

Carol Zarbok writes: "I find it inconceivable that alies....could
would even consider contacting us in this fashion".

Why not?  MUCH is done through thought transference ALL the time.
We are all continually influenced by others' thoughts in the
ocean of the One Mind....

Carol writes that she thinks technologies and sciences here are
more advanced, etc:  This is almost laughable.  Our sciences
and technologies are child's play to the higher intelligences
who can transfer thoughts in less than a split second and understand
sub-atomic energy and frequencies that this world's scientists have
not even BEGUN to fathom let alone contemplate.

Carol:  if your mind is closed to the reality/fact/idea that you CAN
receive thought telepathically, all I can say to you is that it will
not happen.  There must be an
'openness' that it is POSSIBLE.

It happens with me all the time....in transfer of energy work I do,
work in the healing arts, and with friends and relatives (I think of
them, and often within a day or two they phone me, etc.)

Thought is powerful.  Simply because you do not 'see it', do not
think it's a bunch of hogwash.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!verifone.com!ed_l1
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Bigotry is boring the Pleiadians...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 91 22:39:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: VeriFone Inc., Honolulu HI
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Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3364 alt.alien.visitors:2441 sci.skeptic:16319

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:

>
> Hey Karen, how many *blondes* does it take to:
>      - make a "perfectly real honest experience"?
>      - make a past life?  or should that be vice-versa??

Well, bigotry lives!  I had no doubt.  Anyone got any good Aussie jokes?
SInce we are going to judge people on hair color, skin, color, religion,
belief systems, gender, language and genetic background, we might as well
include place of residence.

Gee, in fact, culture may be the best reason of all to discriminate!

Perhaps some of you think that bigotry is a joke.  You've just been on the
wrong end of it.  THings change, remember.

--
===========================================================================
=  Ed L'Esperance - P.O. Box 4635, Kane`ohe, Hawai`i 96744  U.S.A. Earth  =
=   Anthropologist, Writer, Editor, etc. -*-  UUCP%"[e-mail]"   =
= DISCLAIMER: Opinions Copyright 1991 Ed L'Esperance. All Rights Reserved =
===========================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Bigotry is boring the Pleiadians...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 04:05:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 28
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3365 alt.alien.visitors:2442 sci.skeptic:16320
Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>
>>
>> Hey Karen, how many *blondes* does it take to:
>>      - make a "perfectly real honest experience"?
>>      - make a past life?  or should that be vice-versa??
>
>Well, bigotry lives!  I had no doubt.  Anyone got any good Aussie jokes?
>SInce we are going to judge people on hair color, skin, color, religion,
>belief systems, gender, language and genetic background, we might as well
>include place of residence.
>
>Gee, in fact, culture may be the best reason of all to discriminate!
>
>Perhaps some of you think that bigotry is a joke.  You've just been on the
>wrong end of it.  THings change, remember.

Is pointing out to someone who sounds like a stereotypical blonde that she
sounds like a stereotypical blonde bigotry?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pleiadian Transcripts are boring..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 03:03:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 48
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3366 alt.alien.visitors:2443

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
 (Karen Millar)
 flames:

> [e-mail] writes:
>
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
>> (Karen Millar) writes:>
>>> ......stuff deleted....The main issue that the Pleiadians
>>> are trying to get across our thick sculls is that
>>>
>>>             IT IS TIME TO WAKE UP!
>>>
>
>>This is getting beyong a joke.  Time to move on....
>                  ^^^^^^
>     does this guy have a code in his node??


Why, do I sound a bit nasal?  Actually I haven't had a cold in my nose for
quite a while.  As for code in my node, my server wouldn't work without some
code, so I guess I must have. :-)

>
>>Hey Karen, how many *blondes* does it take to:
>>     - make a "perfectly real honest experience"?
>>     - make a past life?  or should that be vice-versa??
>
> Who *IS* this guy??

(Mail me)

I'm not the type to have a fancy .sig or a smart love message at the end.
But that's no reason to jump to the conclusion that I'm a guy! Your prejudices
are showing.  Hope you don't do all your research that way.

>
>
> --
>     Love is the answer...
>     Communication Facilities Designer
>     Freelance in the Land of Enchantment              Albuquerque, NM
>     [e-mail]                             [phone]


BTW, You didn't answer the blonde questions that you assumed were jokes!

I still say the PT's are boring.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!schumach
From: [e-mail] (Richard A. Schumacher)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 04:20:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
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Nntp-Posting-Host: starman.convex.com

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Coffman) writes:
>With Columbus' aniversary of discovering the new world looming,
>there is little doubt that the sense of discovery and exploration
>is still alive in the world. No doubt there were naysayers in
>his time as well who declaimed the expense of his foolish journey to
>fall off the edge of the Earth.

I can't let this old myth go unchallenged. As Isaac Asimov has pointed out:
Every educated person in
Colon's time knew that the Earth was round, and that its diameter
was about 25000 miles. Colon faced considerable criticism and doubt
because it was known that his ships could not possibly sail the entire
distance between Spain and the Orient, and he could have thought it was
possible only by convincing himself that the Earth was really only 17000
miles or so in circumference. Asimov remarks that
Colon was one of the luckiest people in history, in that the Americas
happened to be in his way, and just within reach of his little caravels.
He died still thinking that he had reached the Orient and not a new
continent.

We will not be so lucky in going to Mars.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!agate!lightning.Berkeley.EDU!fcrary
From: [e-mail] (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 05:04:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET Administrator)
Organization: ucb
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Richard A. Schumacher) writes:
>[Summary of how Columbus thought the world was much smaller that it actually
> is, and how he was very lucky that America was in the way, since his ships
> could not have possibly reached China.]
>We will not be so lucky in going to Mars.

However, we know exactly how far it is to Mars, and what would be required
for such a voyage. Knowing this, we are very able to send men to Mars,
without needing any luck what so even.

                        Frank Crary
                        UC Berkeley
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!montfaid
From: [e-mail] (Monty L Faidley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Personal Experiences
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 04:57:47 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Monty L Faidley)
Organization: Iowa State University
Lines: 8


    My parents were once "buzzed" by a cigar shaped craft, with weird
lights.  They said it passed overhead, making absolutely no sound, and landed
in a grove of trees about 1/4 mile ahead of them.  My dad went to see it, and
it took off before he got there, and dissappeared into the sky.
    This is actually true.  Write me if you have questions.

                --mlf
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!metro!socs.uts.edu.au!kralizec!nick
From: [e-mail] (Nick Andrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 91 00:39:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: Kralizec Public Access Unix - Sydney, Australia
Lines: 70
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2447 sci.skeptic:16328 sci.astro:11930

[e-mail] (David Jones) writes:

> Richard Hoagland used
>two universal constants and their ratio, in order to substantiate his claims.
>These two numbers are pi (3.14) and e, the base of natural logarithms
>(2.72), and the resulting ratio: e/pi ~= 0.865.

>For instance. it you take the slope of the Great Pyramid in Egypt, and
>divide it by the 60 degrees, it's top angle, you get 0.865.  This is
>replicated for the pyramids on Mars.

>The ratio of the Earth to it's moon is .272.  The moon takes 27.32 (Earth)
>days to orbit the Earth.  It should be 27.2.  If we interpolate the difference
>and how much the Earth's moon is moving away, we get 200,000 years ago for
>our moon to be the 27.2 he speaks of.  Was OUR moon put there by
>extraterrestrials that escaped to this planet to mine? Will we find
>extraterrestrial artifacts on our own moon? (Maybe we already have?)

I am not a mathematician, unlike one other who followed up this posting.
However, this posting smacks of the sort of pseudo-scientific,
pseudo-mathematical mumbo-jumbo which frauds often use to impress the gullible.

This person is starting with a bizarre theory, and working into it every
scrap of data (it can't be called evidence) which can be manipulated to
make some coincidence. The more bizarre and improbable the manipulation,
the more it is presented as a "secret" of the aliens, or an "elegant
mathematical chain of logic". Furthermore, data which does not fit the
a-priori hypothesis is discarded and never sees the light of day, especially
in these seminars.

I am reminded by a book published by a New Zealander, an airline pilot, in
the mid-1970s. This person used a photograph of something strange at the
bottom of the ocean (it looked like an antenna array) and a lot of dubious
mathematical junk to assert that:

* The earth is covered by a network of force lines, with these antennas
   acting as collectors;

* Aliens are (or were) using those networks to fly around the earth using
  antigravity;

* The US government knows all about this;

* It was only through the actions of those antennas and particular timing
  that atomic bombs could explode.

The author went on to "show" how the times of various nuclear tests
coincided with his formulae. His formulae were utter nonsense ... more or less
"take this number X, then sin it, and take the log of that. Square it and
divide by pi, then multiply by the log of the number of days since the last
explosion". Furthermore, the formulae weren't consistent from page to page.
It looked like the author played with different manipulations until the
answer was what he wanted it to be.

So the moral of the story: "Kids, don't believe this at home".

>  ***************************************************************************
> *  COMING NEXT:  My discussions with Wendelle Stevens regarding Grey        *
> *         aliens from the Reticulum Star cluster and his playing of a       *
> *         cassette tape of the sounds of one of their space ships.          *
>  ***************************************************************************


This quote makes it sound like the poster is pulling our collective legs.

Nick.
--
Kralizec Dialup Unix            Data: [phone], 2400 24hrs 8N1
Voice: [phone] (1900-2300)    Zeta Microcomputer Software
Plan: to beat Gnuchess 3.1 fairly!    P.O. Box 177, Riverstone NSW 2765
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!comp.vuw.ac.nz!canterbury.ac.nz!cosc.canterbury.ac.nz!chisnall
From: [e-mail] (The Technicolour Throw-up)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Bigotry is boring the Pleiadians...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 07:53:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science,University of Canterbury,New Zealand
Lines: 14
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3371 alt.alien.visitors:2448 sci.skeptic:16330
Nntp-Posting-Host: hihi.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail]:
> Well, bigotry lives!  I had no doubt.  Anyone got any good Aussie jokes?

Q: Why are Irish jokes always so simple?

A: So that Australians can understand them!

> include place of residence.

Why not?  Australian jokes are quite popular here in NZ.  Its my
understanding that kiwi jokes are equally popular in Australia.
--
Just my two rubber ningis worth.
Name: Michael Chisnall        email: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!news.hawaii.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Bigotry as boring as Pleiadians...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 06:53:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 26
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3372 alt.alien.visitors:2449 sci.skeptic:16332

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>
> Well, bigotry lives!  I had no doubt.  Anyone got any good Aussie jokes?
> SInce we are going to judge people on hair color, skin, color, religion,
> belief systems, gender, language and genetic background, we might as well
> include place of residence.
>
> Gee, in fact, culture may be the best reason of all to discriminate!
>
> Perhaps some of you think that bigotry is a joke.  You've just been on the
> wrong end of it.  THings change, remember.
>
Massive Flames?!

Well, my WorPerfect Thesaurus defines bigot as racist, sexist, crank, chauvinist
BUT hair colour doesn't fit any of these - remember males are blondes, and also
blondes can be made from a bottle. Australia's EEO &AA laws are very strict, but
don't preclude blonde jokes - which are taking the country by storm at the
moment. What about *bald* jokes? What about calling aliens GREYS!!! or
environmentalists Greens!!!

As for the rest of the list I agree with you, but I won't flame you if you tell
an aussie joke, as long as it is funny.:-)

 The point was that Karen is too serious. Chill out man.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!yang.earlham.edu!julianm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 10:14:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Lines: 61

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
> Carol Zarbok writes: "I find it inconceivable that alies....could
> would even consider contacting us in this fashion".
>
> Why not?  MUCH is done through thought transference ALL the time.
> We are all continually influenced by others' thoughts in the
> ocean of the One Mind....
>
> Carol writes that she thinks technologies and sciences here are
> more advanced, etc:  This is almost laughable.  Our sciences
> and technologies are child's play to the higher intelligences
> who can transfer thoughts in less than a split second and understand
> sub-atomic energy and frequencies that this world's scientists have
> not even BEGUN to fathom let alone contemplate.
>
> Carol:  if your mind is closed to the reality/fact/idea that you CAN
> receive thought telepathically, all I can say to you is that it will
> not happen.  There must be an
> 'openness' that it is POSSIBLE.
>
> It happens with me all the time....in transfer of energy work I do,
> work in the healing arts, and with friends and relatives (I think of
> them, and often within a day or two they phone me, etc.)
>
> Thought is powerful.  Simply because you do not 'see it', do not
> think it's a bunch of hogwash.
>
> Kathy
To be fair, I don't think Carol has dismissed your work as "a bunch of
hogwash."  If you re-read what she has written, I think you will agree
with me that your reaction is a little strong.  She is not attacking you,
merely expressing some very reasonable doubts.

I do not openly doubt that humans do have certain powers of the mind that
can be harnessed or channeled, however you like to call it.  But the very
fact that these powers are indeed harnessed by so few does lead one to
question and assert, as Carol does, that we are indeed more developed
technologically than we are telepathically.

Have you not wondered, for example, why all those who claim to be
reincarnated are always reincarnations of Cleopatra and General Patton?
How come no one is ever the reincarnation of the Roman Forum's head
janitor?  Or for that matter, how come all these alien visits are always
at the top of mountains or out in some deserted plain somewhere?  How come
these dudes don't come to party it up in some capital city with the big boys?
(Alien sightings in South America always grab me, because you're often dealing
with people inthe mountains (ever heard of hypoxia-induced hallucination?)

Moreover, you never really answer Carol's criticism: why would aliens not
try to contact us in ways that we would most readily understand?  Surely
there are more of us with undeveloped mind abilities than there are those
of you with developed ones.  Aren't we the larger audience? It seems to me
that if I were an alien visitor trying to announce my visit I would
contact people in a manner most likely to be recognized by the most--in other
words, I would go for market share.  The aliens we've had so far don't
appear to understand this concept. Perhaps they should get together with some
very large Earth-based church and knock that problem around some.  Try the
Catholics.

Julian/Felix
Experience the difference!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!ra!cee1
From: [e-mail] (Charles Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Last night...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 13:41:58 GMT
Organization: Mississippi State University
Lines: 26

Unbelievebale. Last night either me or my mind was violated whilst I was asleep.
Something outside my room window was watching me and putting some words [real
high scratchy voice in my mind] .. this was after I was awakened from a dream
about the world being 'disinformed'. I see I am so shook up, I'll probly be off
to see a counselor soon.

More and full details later this afternoon.

And I am quite upset and ticked about this. I am a nervous wreck. It was no
plain nightmare.

The Chuckmeister
[e-mail]

--

 +----------------------------------------\\         -------------
 |  Internet: [e-mail]     __o   \\    --------------------
 |  Bitnet:   [e-mail]     \<,    >>   Jesus Christ is Lord
 |  Identity: Charles Edward Evans  ()/ ()  //    --------------------
 +----------------------------------------//         --------------

  "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call HERESY,
   so worship I the God of my fathers, BELIEVING ALL THINGS which are
   WRITTEN in the law and in the prophets."
                                               -- Acts 24:14
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 17:33:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 17
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Sun, 13 Oct 1991 18:40:28 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> Carol Zarbok writes: "I find it inconceivable that alies....could
> would even consider contacting us in this fashion".
>
> Why not?  MUCH is done through thought transference ALL the time.

   If telepathy exists at all or if it exist to the point of having any
practical worth, discussions of this type would not happen.  No one should
have to convince anyone of the existence of telepathy.  That is exactly the
problem with all of these telepathic communications with spooky beings.  You
are forced to take the word of some housewife in Detroit that she is
representing the human race by virture of her superior mental powers. Why
doesn't she just pass the news on telepathically.

    For that matter, why do all of the aliens that are channelled have
different stories about what's behind the face on Mars, Pyramids, etc?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!ra!cee1
From: [e-mail] (Charles Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: what is CEOTTK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 18:11:11 GMT
Lines: 21

In the title CLose Encounters of the THIRD KIND ...

what does the 'third kind mean'??

Just wondering... anyone read my post of my encounter last nigtht?

THe Chuckmeister
[e-mail]
`
--

 +----------------------------------------\\         -------------
 |  Internet: [e-mail]     __o   \\    --------------------
 |  Bitnet:   [e-mail]     \<,    >>   Jesus Christ is Lord
 |  Identity: Charles Edward Evans  ()/ ()  //    --------------------
 +----------------------------------------//         --------------

  "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call HERESY,
   so worship I the God of my fathers, BELIEVING ALL THINGS which are
   WRITTEN in the law and in the prophets."
                                               -- Acts 24:14
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!csus.edu!news
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: alien visitors I know
Keywords: help me
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 19:04:38 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: nobody at all
Distribution: na
Organization: California State University, Sacramento
Lines: 15

I know a guy, or rather I know him by his flesh-suit, who I and our friends
are absolutely sure is an alien.

I am serious here. There are all the classic signs: excessive alcohol imbibing,
an exceedingly messy house where huge mounds of seeming garbage are
saved for that "special day", rich but intensely eccentric parents,
an affinity for strange activities; getting drunk and interviewing bums,
pretending he is a Rat, slumming, etc.

The man's name is Zach Copley. I'm sure some of you know him, either as he
is or as Ratsnatcher (remember Rat Head? It still exists. ZC fled to Oregon,
and I am trying to track him down in Corvallis or Eugene or Portland.. anyway,
now Adam, another alien, I think thats his name at least, runs it).

I need help.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 22:18:33 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 56

Julian/Felix posts that I did not answer Carol Zarbok's question
as to why an alien may choose to contact someone telepathically.

Why would higher beings choose to communicate via thought/
telepathy?  Maybe because it is a much higher form and more precise
form of communication than verbal words.  If the aliens are not
higher intelligence, they me of the lower (or dark forces).  These,
too, can contact people through their minds or telepathy.  I think
the term for these are the greys...and they probably can and do
oftentimes (with success) bring a soul down from its' higher potentialities.

Thought is powerful and quick.  Higher intelligence/beings who follow
universal law (love is the fulfillment of the law) may wish to help
and inspire others who are 'open' to their inspiration and may act
on it (such as in the realms of creative artistry, music, etc.)
Great composers such as Beethoven, etc. may in fact have been
'inspired' from higher realms/intelligences.

Another thing might be that theychoose to communicat telepathically
rather than come into our plane physically is because of the low
consciousness that exists on this planet.  Let's face it:  not
every one is dedicated and has made concentration to following
universal law and the law of harmlessness.  If many people here are
not spiritually evolved enough to even understand the basic law
and reverance for *all* life, why should a high/angelic intelligence
even bother to contact someone who is not even bothering to follow
the basics?  It would seem only natural to me that only those who
were worthy (i.e., were living lives demonstrating love) would
begin to indicate a spiritual openness.

Watch Bille Meier speak towards the end of the movie CONTACT.
A spiritually aware person will demonstrate: kindness, love,
sincerity, humility, etc.

Lower consciousness may attempt to injure higher intelligence
if they came here in the physical (they sure don't hesitate to
murder their fellow beings and fellow creatures, etc.).  Angels
do not come down to dine with devils.  Devils must purify/cleanse
themselves to be lifted up to angelic realms.

So when one speaks of higher intelligence, it also indicates high
consciousness (something which seems to be sorely lacking on this
planet at this time).

As far as every one feeling they were Patton or Cleopatra.  This
simply is not true.  In many of the books, many people remembered
mediocre, peasant life-times.  There are many many accounts of
these written up.  Also, as far as many believing they are Patton:
an explanation for this is that the energy that was manifesting
in Patton split up and was re distributed in many many parts...each
part going into one person.  The energy, if split up a thousand times
(or in a 1,000 parts) may very well be presently manifesting in
1,000 beings at present, accounting for each one thinking they were
the personality of Patton (which may be quite true for them).

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!hp-cv!hp-pcd!hp-vcd!miked
From: [e-mail] (Mike Dobbs)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO TV show on FOX
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 19:54:40 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA
Lines: 6

The FOX network will air Linda Moulton Howes new documentary this
Friday night (Oct 18) at 9:00 EDT/PDT.  It is called:
The UFO Report: Sightings.
It will last one hour.
--------
  Mike Dobbs        /    Internet: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!ucbvax!hplabs!dsmith
From: [e-mail] (David Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 21:09:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (David Smith)
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: HPLabs Palo Alto, CA
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2457 sci.skeptic:16359 sci.astro:11943 misc.headlines:18545 alt.paranormal:3381 alt.conspiracy:8124

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Richard A. Schumacher) writes:
>... and he could have thought it was
>possible only by convincing himself that the Earth was really only 17000
>miles or so in circumference. ...

Last week's PBS series on Columbus brought out not only this, but also that
Columbus greatly overestimated the east-west expanse of Asia, and thought
he only had to sail about 3,000 miles to close the gap.  Just before making
landfall, things looked bad for him, because by his reckoning, he should
have already sailed through Japan.

--
David R. Smith, HP Labs | "In Managua, people are cheering in the streets,
[e-mail]    | which are deserted."
[phone]          | CBS reporter during eclipse totality, 1991-Jul-11
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.170.178 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 23:51:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 8
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Mon, 14 Oct 1991 22:18:33 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: gemini
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> So when one speaks of higher intelligence, it also indicates high
> consciousness (something which seems to be sorely lacking on this
> planet at this time).

    You speak as if you believe that you are of a higher consciousness.  Do
you recieve telepathic communications from aliens?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!schumach
From: [e-mail] (Richard A. Schumacher)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 23:55:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
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Nntp-Posting-Host: starman.convex.com

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Frank Crary) writes:
>However, we know exactly how far it is to Mars, and what would be required
>for such a voyage. Knowing this, we are very able to send men to Mars,
>without needing any luck what so even.

Glad to hear it. Now we can dispense with that stupid space station
without any objections about the need to perform long-duration studies
of human health or tests of recycling machinery, etc.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 91 00:32:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 32

Kellan Hatch asks if I believe I receive telepathic communications
from aliens, etc:

Kellan:  Please give me *your* definition of what an *alien* is.

I will tell you this:  this universe, this world is composed of MUCH
more than what you see with the naked eye.  There are myriads of
other universes, worlds, galaxies (think of a radio that has numerous
bands or stations you can access, etc.)

When one becomes spiritually 'open' I do believe it is indeed
possible to receive thoughts/telepathies from higher intelligences,
prophets, saints, and beings of the spiritual hierarchy.  A prophet
is not someone who can merely tell the future, but prophecy involves
inspiration and receiving inspiration from 'On High'.

You know that old saying, don't you?  (With God, All Things are Possible).

When one goes beyond the conscious/unconscious/mental realms, and
pierces the spiritual, many new worlds and understandings can open
up before one, and yes, contact telepathically with higher beings.
Contact with lower beings can occur, also, and this is way prayer
for protection is most important when one starts venturing to open
the chakras into spiritual realms.  Also, perhaps the important
work of some needing to get a spiritual guide and work on balance.

Heart to heart communication is indeed possible, and sometimes I
just intuitively 'know' where to place my hands when doing laying
on of hands work with people.  Do not ask me to explain all of this:
I can not.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!apple!amdcad!pyramid!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30
From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: mysterious British deaths
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 20:27:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2461 alt.conspiracy:8129

>                                 But last night I had a new idea.  In
>another forum, there was a thread about the theory that crop circles are
>the results of orbital maser weapon testing............................
>Anybody have any ideas to contribute?

Remember, you asked................

 These weapons must be pretty useless if all they can do is bend plants
 over. Doesn't even kill the plants, they continue to grow. I guess it
 could be pretty bad if every one on the planet got permenently bent in
 half. We'd have to get to know each other by our shoes. ;-)

--
=========================================================================
  All poetry posted is Copyright protected, anything else is just talk.
Denise Solis - Amdahl Corp.                     [e-mail]
=========================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!tukki.jyu.fi!mol
From: [e-mail] (Mika O. Latokartano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: what is CEOTTK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 21:13:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles Evans) writes:
>In the title CLose Encounters of the THIRD KIND ...
>
>what does the 'third kind mean'??

It means the actual 'face-to-face' or physical contact with an ET
intelligence.  A close encounter of the first kind and of the second
kind are (I do not remember precicely) also contacts with ETI's -
visual or intercepted audio-signal transmissions.  I only remember
reading of this, so this info is only advisory - not the exact fact.
Perhaps someone with more info could elaborate on this?

    - Mika


--
[  Mika O. Latokartano  Internet : [e-mail]     [e-mail]          ]
[  [e-mail]    Decnet : [e-mail]  Bitnet : [e-mail]  ]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: FILE: Codex.asc - Peruvian AF encounter with Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 91 00:46:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 33
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2463 alt.conspiracy:8137 sci.skeptic:16376

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler) writes:
>[e-mail] (Doug S. Caprette Bldg. 28 W191 x3892) says:
>
>> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>>> [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler) writes:
>
>>> I have spent the last few months posting numerous articles and the only
>>> ... (much deleted)
>>> it or not..I don't care) until I,along with 2 others had a Close
>>> Encounter in 1974, in Albuquerque,NM. This sighting lasted for 10 min.,
>>> was *very* close and thereafter convinced me that "there's something
>>> to all this UFO "nonsense".
>
>My reputation is at stake.  I (Jon Thaler) am not the same person as Don
>Allen.  Thank god!  The quote above is incorrectly attributed to me.  It
>was actually posted by Don Allen, or some other cyberspace entity.

WOW! That was _really_ close..for a second, I thought you might actually
have something worthwhile to say..

Naw...why blow your fabulous rep?

:-) :-)

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!husc-news.harvard.edu!husc9.harvard.edu!ford
From: [e-mail] (Liam Ford)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Harvard Crimson UFO article
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 91 05:47:12 GMT
References: <
Organization: Harvard University Science Center
Lines: 7
Nntp-Posting-Host: husc9.harvard.edu

I'd like to thank everyone who responded to my call for inormation last week.
The article will be printed this Thursday and I'll try to put it on the
newsgroup over the weekend.

/./. Liam T. A. Ford        [e-mail]
"I didn't come here to play guessing games." --Humbert Humbert in
                            Lolita [the movie]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!unlinfo.unl.edu!czarbock
From: [e-mail] (carol zarbock)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 91 10:45:03 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Lines: 21

Kathy,

I would like to politely submit that you are doing a lot of
rationalizing of your position--too many variables.  Again,
it supports my opinion, narrow as it may be, that even
covert contact would come through a more identifiable source
for our current state of technology and mental awareness.

You have some nice thoughts, but generally, the shortest
distance between two points is a straight line.

Sorry.  And if you think I'm narrow minded, let me tell you
that I used to have a booth at the CO Ren Faire--Pagan
Tarot!

I rather like the idea I once saw in Omni magazine that
contact may come in the form of a chemical message.  Anyone
know anything about that?

Regards,
Carol
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 91 12:39:08 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 42

Carol Zarbok writes that I may be doing a lot of rationalizing
on my part, etc.:

Carol:  I would like to say that perhaps YOU are doing a lot of
rationalizing.  Actually, I no longer care that much what others'
opinion are of my own experiences.

I have come to the conclusion that people must find their own answers,
and my answers may very well not be your answers.

Each person has experiences that are unique to himself, and as it
has been said many-a-time:  man himself is the path.

Incidentally, I remember something about reading that Edison's parnts
parents were spiritualists, and maybe he was too (not sure)...but
perhaps his ideas of communication, telegraph came from higher realms
of knowledge, imagination (again, he may have been in contact/communion
with higher aspects of the Self, etc).  Also, I remember that Singer
got his idea for the needle on the sewing machine through the dream
state (he could not figure out how to design the machine or the needle
until the idea of the needle with the thread going through it came
to him in a dream).

It is interesting you had a booth doing Tarot readings.  But I am
no longer attracted to psychic fairs and things of that nature, although
I do recognize the Tarot's origins to be of ancient Egyptian wisdom/
knowledge.  To me, tarot is a tool to better understand aspects of
self.  But so are many other avenues.  I have a number of friends who
feel they are quite psychic but they certainly are not always accurate
in their assessments about others or events, etc.

Each to his own.

But I do believe in spiritual hierarchy and do not have difficulty
in either believing and/or accepting the fact/reality that we are not
the only beings in the Cosmos (here on planet earth).  I believe there
are many galaxies, many universes, and many dimensions and realities.
When one starts to break egoic boundaries (go through spiritual
transformation), many new discoveries of other dimensions and worlds
may open up.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: You May Be Your Own Alien
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 91 13:15:20 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 14

It is always interesting to me to note what people define
as 'aliens.'

Just because a person was born (incarnated) on this planet does
not mean this is their true home, or place of origin.

If life is eternal, the soul immortal, what makes so many people
think/believe their 'beginning' was at the moment of conception
into an earthly bodies.

Verily, many people walking the earth can indeed be 'aliens'...and
not even know and/or remember it...

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!yang.earlham.edu!julianm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 91 08:01:12 GMT
Lines: 137

In message <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
 (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Julian/Felix posts that I did not answer Carol Zarbok's question
>as to why an alien may choose to contact someone telepathically.

>Thought is powerful and quick.  Higher intelligence/beings who follow
>universal law (love is the fulfillment of the law) may wish to help
>and inspire others who are 'open' to their inspiration and may act
>on it (such as in the realms of creative artistry, music, etc.)
>Great composers such as Beethoven, etc. may in fact have been
>'inspired' from higher realms/intelligences.

Certainly, Kathy, I would have to agree that there seems something more
subtle, more ethereal about this telepathic communication (I should point
out here that I've never experienced this personally, and although I can
see how it would be so, ultimately I'm just taking your word for it...)
than there is about base, slow, cumbersome verbal communication.  We have
no argument here.

But there is, as far as I can tell, *no* support for your comment that
Beethoven and other great composers might have been inspired by other realms/
intelligences.  You simply can't be honest and just throw that kind of
stuff out because it contravenes the ground rules of good argument.

You might respond that I am being excessively rigid or Earth-bound or
whatever in pointing this out, but I would like to point out something
that is often lost in our talk of humans and other realms.  It's true that
most humans aren't the most remarkable things to have hit the planet, let
alone the universe; but recognizing our relative pettiness often gets in
the way of the fact that we are *finite* beings.  That makes what we do a
lot more impressive than what, for example, the God of the Judeo-Christian
tradition has done, does, or ever will do.  Because a God in this case has *no*
limits; without limits nothing is an effort.  Conversely, what humans have done
has been an incredible effort which has sorely strained our relatively small
minds and swelled our spirits.

I am reminded of a speech the Rabbi Harold Kushner once gave about this
kind of thing.  (I'm paraphrasing)

    "Miracles?  I'm talking about *big* miracles--parting the
    Red Sea, that's small stuff; we've got Cecil B. DeMille to
    do that for us.  I'm talking about friends who have overcome
    their feelings of intense awkwardness to come visit us in the
    hospital; about people transcending their own small station in
    life to be with someone in need..."

So the point I'd like to make (sorry if this wasn't too concise) is that,
for all our limitations, it's living up to them that makes us great.  So
if I must use slow, plodding Earth-bound "reason" and ask, nay, demand,
for you to support your argument, then there is nothing fundamentally,
spiritually wrong with this.

Angels, spirits, otherworldly visitors, et al., will understand this if
they be spiritual beings worth their salt.

>Another thing might be that they choose to communicat telepathically
>rather than come into our plane physically is because of the low
>consciousness that exists on this planet.  Let's face it:  not
>every one is dedicated and has made concentration to following
>universal law and the law of harmlessness.  If many people here are
>not spiritually evolved enough to even understand the basic law
>and reverance for *all* life, why should a high/angelic intelligence
>even bother to contact someone who is not even bothering to follow
>the basics?  It would seem only natural to me that only those who
>were worthy (i.e., were living lives demonstrating love) would
>begin to indicate a spiritual openness.


This "universal law" of which you speak doesn't appear to be well-substantiated
empirically.  Usually it has been presented to me in the form of sidewalk
preachers telling me, "Yes, repent or the Great Merciful Lord Jesus will
make Crispy Critters out of you..."  When you say "universal", I cringe.
There may indeed be some sort of universal law of harmlessness; it is not
documented in human history and no spiritual/otherworldly being will
decide *not* to contact us because of this fact.  That is, not if they're
worth their salt.

>Watch Bille Meier speak towards the end of the movie CONTACT.
>A spiritually aware person will demonstrate: kindness, love,
>sincerity, humility, etc.

I'll do that.  The movie looks interesting.  (I almost picked up the book
one day at the library; perhaps I will do that now.)

>Lower consciousness may attempt to injure higher intelligence
>if they came here in the physical (they sure don't hesitate to
>murder their fellow beings and fellow creatures, etc.).  Angels
>do not come down to dine with devils.  Devils must purify/cleanse
>themselves to be lifted up to angelic realms.

I'm sorry, do you mean that *human* lower consciousness might unwittingly
(or even willfully) attempt to injure this "higher intelligence"  if it
came to us?  Or is our lower consciousness an autonomous entity?

To get culturally specific, Christian tradition--in which I am
schooled--has it that angels do indeed come to dine with devils; Jesus'
breaking bread with overt sinners is the best example of this, I think.
Taken further, in the great Talmudic tradition, God himself is *called to
answer to humankind*, a humankind quite filled with more than its share of
malficient tendencies.  So I cannot agree that angels do not come to dine
with devils.  In fact, I would say precisely the opposite: it is a mark
of an angelic spirit that angels come to dine with devils.  That would be what
sets angels apart from devils.

(To get slightly off the point, but then again it is 2:45am here: I am
reminded of the Billy Joel song *Only the good die young*:

        "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than
        cry with the saints; the sinners are much
        more fun."



>So when one speaks of higher intelligence, it also indicates high
>consciousness (something which seems to be sorely lacking on this
>planet at this time).

>As far as every one feeling they were Patton or Cleopatra.  This
>simply is not true.  In many of the books, many people remembered
>mediocre, peasant life-times.  There are many many accounts of
>these written up.  Also, as far as many believing they are Patton:
>an explanation for this is that the energy that was manifesting
>in Patton split up and was re distributed in many many parts...each
>part going into one person.  The energy, if split up a thousand times
>(or in a 1,000 parts) may very well be presently manifesting in
>1,000 beings at present, accounting for each one thinking they were
>the personality of Patton (which may be quite true for them).

Skepticism: "...many of the books"?  *What* books?  Anybody can write a
book.  (And in fact, many utterly unremarkable anybodies have written books...)
A book is no sacrosanct authority.  However, I will take your word for it
here: I have never read any of these acccounts...ignorance yields to experience.

(Another base, Earth-bound convention of mine...)

Julian/Felix
Send out the dogs!
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!emory!ra!Isis.MsState.Edu!ewf2
From: [e-mail] (Eric "JUICE" Fritzius)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: what is CEOTTK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 91 16:00:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 29
Nntp-Posting-Host: isis-gw.msstate.edu

[e-mail] (Mika O. Latokartano) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles Evans) writes:
>>In the title CLose Encounters of the THIRD KIND ...
>>
>>what does the 'third kind mean'??

>It means the actual 'face-to-face' or physical contact with an ET
>intelligence.  A close encounter of the first kind and of the second
>kind are (I do not remember precicely) also contacts with ETI's -
>visual or intercepted audio-signal transmissions.  I only remember
>reading of this, so this info is only advisory - not the exact fact.
>Perhaps someone with more info could elaborate on this?

>    - Mika

I was under the impression that the kinds ran something like this...

1st Kind--Seeing a UFO

2nd Kind--Seeing a UFO that is very close/landed

3rd Kind--Seeing a UFO that is very close/landed and meeting its
pilot/pilots/E.T.'s/etc

Correct me if I'm wrong.

JSA
ewf
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 91 18:54:20 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 30

Julian/Felix wishes me to 'support' my argument, etc. about
telepathy with higher intelligences.

I am sorry, Julian/Felix, but I do not engage in arguing with
the mind in this matter.  This is one area where one simply either
knows or does not know with the heart.  All the mind trips and
intellectualzing oftentimes gets one no where..in fact, sometimes
the mind must go through mental death to stop its' monkey mindedness
once and for all.

Each person must find his own truth.  No one, and I do mean NO ONE
will bring you your answers or arguments on a silver platter, Julian.
When you have your own direct experiences, you will realize how
impossible it is to even *try* to convince another of what you have
either experienced or have *realized*.  It is all individual.

I am not interested in arguments, I am interested in truth.  And my
journey is mine, and not yours.

About Jesus breaking bread with sinners:  perhaps not to be confused
here with devils.  Jesus may very well have been breaking bread with
people whose minds and hearts were beginning to open and who desired
truth.  Devils are in another category altogether.  Devils deny truth:
both in themselves and in others.

Regarding hospital visits, etc:  yes, I agree with this.  It is how
we treat our fellow human beings on this planet....without the fruits
there is not much left.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 91 23:36:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 58
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 15 Oct 91 08:01:12 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> In message <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
>  (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
> >Julian/Felix posts that I did not answer Carol Zarbok's question
> >as to why an alien may choose to contact someone telepathically.
>
> >Thought is powerful and quick.  Higher intelligence/beings who follow
> >universal law (love is the fulfillment of the law) may wish to help
> >and inspire others who are 'open' to their inspiration and may act
> >on it (such as in the realms of creative artistry, music, etc.)
> >Great composers such as Beethoven, etc. may in fact have been
> >'inspired' from higher realms/intelligences.
>
> Certainly, Kathy, I would have to agree that there seems something more
> subtle, more ethereal about this telepathic communication (I should point
> out here that I've never experienced this personally, and although I can
> see how it would be so, ultimately I'm just taking your word for it...)
> than there is about base, slow, cumbersome verbal communication.  We have
> no argument here.

    The problem I have with all of this is that we are given no better reason
to accept these channelled messages except that the person recieving them
claims to have superior capabilities to the rest of us. I am not a 'little
Randi' by any means.  I believe in the possibility of metaphysical events.
It's just have never seen any evidence of the existence of telepathic
communication. The fact that the Kathy gets phone calls from friends within
days of thinking of them just doesn't do it for me.  A simple written message
broadcast from one person to another in a controlled experiment would settle
the issue.  Maybe that sounds too cold and unforgiving for some of you but it
is only good sense.  I think telepathy sounds like lots of fun but I need at
least SOME emperical basis to accept it.  People are expected to alter their
belief system on some pretty flimsy claims but I doubt anyone would by a car
from someone using the same sales techniques.

    How about this: if the extraterrestrials have an important message for us
and they refuse to stoop to our crude methods of communication, why don't they
send the identical message to a hundred or so contactees at the same time? Let
them choose whoever they want, the message is what counts. And while they're
at it, maybe they should instruct all contactees seal their communitations in
envelopes and mail them to the UN on the same day. Do they want us to beilieve
them or are they just testing our gullability.

    There are people claiming to be channelling information vital to our
existence on this planet and the continuance of our race.  Some of them claim
that they supervised the construction of the pyramids 4000 years ago.  Others
claim to have built them themselves 200,000 years ago.  Some claim that we are
their decendents while others claim to have engineered our race. According to
some, there is a big universal network of love and cooperation, but others
have the galaxy broken up into warring factions.  Sometimes Jesus is an alien;
sometimes it's Satan.

    If we accept this concept of telepathic messages from extraterrestrials,
just who the hell are we supposed to believe?  Someone needs to give us
something better to go on.  And please don't tell me that the only reason I
don't believe you is that I have a closed mind.  Accepting only because I like
the way it sounds is just not enough for me.  My mind is completely open to a
logical answer. I want answers too.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 00:06:31 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 33

Kellan Hatch writes: "why don't they (the ETs) send the identical
message.." etc.

Maybe they already HAVE...to maybe thousands who are ready to
receive.  Superior capabilities?  I think a better description
is that some people are more spiritually aware/evolved than others.

Maybe there is a subtlety in the telepathy for a variety of reasons..
after all, if they made their presence known to ALL it might throw
the whole world in fear (what a thought:  they MIGHT have better
technology than our missile systems!!)  And what of the world economy?
And each major country/power wanting the technology for itself and
its' own selfish needs/powers?  The list can go on and on...

After all, this society/world is immersed in fear at many levels
right now as it is...

It may not be a matter of 'believing them', but a matter of
lifting consciousness (a slow process for many, it would seem).
How many people are willing to admit they do not know everything
and are ready to become genuine of heart and be like children (looking
at new worlds/dimensions in wonder and believability?)  No, people
here on this planet get angry and upset oftentimes when their belief
structures are even questioned by others, let alone, shown perhaps
that they are completely way off base.

I think it was Einstein who said imagination was greater than
knowledge.  Think about it.  He sought his own answers.  You must
seek yours.  No one else is going to give them to you simply
by your demanding them.  The Quest for truth can be a long inward
journey, not something demanded on a newsgroup.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!amdcad!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30
From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: firsthand accounts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 20:52:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]> KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) writes:
>
>    I'm curious to know how many of the people who read this group have had
>experiences that they interpret as encounters with extraterristrial
>vehicles or beings.  I'm not talking about channelling, but actual physical
>events.  If you feel that you have had such encounters, whould you please post
>brief accounts?

I've had 2 experiences that I can remember.

In the summer of 1972 I went to a private beach in Santa Cruz (Calif.) at
11:30 pm or so. I parked my car on a cliff and sat with my legs hanging
over the edge. (here's the weird part) I don't know how long I was
sitting there before I realized what I was seeing. There was a huge light
like a beam about 20 feet wide in the water and going up into the clouds.
When I looked down into the light I couldn't see anything but bright light
and I couldn't see anything in the clouds either. I was so scared I
couldn't move. The light was steady and didn't move. I finally got up and
ran to my car and drove as fast as I could into town to a friends house.
I'm not sure what this was but I was never there before or since.


The other experience was more understandable. I was living on 25 acres in
Paso Robles, California. I use to like to go outside in the night and play
my guitar. On one such night I observed a light standing still over a hill
across the road. I thought it was a plane moving towards me and seeming
like it was still. Suddenly the light made a zig-zag movement and started
moving along the hillside. No plane I know can move like that. I got
really scared and hid behind a tree. The light moved along the hill a
little while then shot up into the sky almost straight up. It was a weird
feeling seeing something like that.



--
=========================================================================
  All poetry posted is Copyright protected, anything else is just talk.
Denise Solis - Amdahl Corp.                     [e-mail]
=========================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 91 07:13:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 8
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16407 alt.paranormal:3387 alt.alien.visitors:2474 talk.religion.newage:7287

Here is a quote and a reference for the reptilian brain idea. I haven't
read the article though. Don
Deep inside your brain there exists a small but powerful primeval center that
is every bit as violent and reptilian in nature as the brain of a lizard or
crocodile.

quoted from an article called Ritual and Deceit by Mary
Long Science Digest Nov/Dec 1980
Path: ns-mx!uunet!verifone.com!ed_l1
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Bigotry is boring EVERYONE!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 02:18:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]>
Organization: VeriFone Inc., Honolulu HI
Lines: 19
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3388 alt.alien.visitors:2475 sci.skeptic:16409

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick) writes:

> Is pointing out to someone who sounds like a stereotypical blonde that she
> sounds like a stereotypical blonde bigotry?

IMHO, having and holding such a stereotype is bigotry.  Not only will it
maky you act differently toward people whom you perceive to fit the
stereotype, it will condition the perceptions of others.

Many other anthropologists and many sociologists share that same humble
opinion; we have seen it in action. (Probably even a few psychologists,
too!)

--
===========================================================================
=  Ed L'Esperance - P.O. Box 4635, Kane`ohe, Hawai`i 96744  U.S.A. Earth  =
=   Anthropologist, Writer, Editor, etc. -*-  UUCP%"[e-mail]"   =
= DISCLAIMER: Opinions Copyright 1991 Ed L'Esperance. All Rights Reserved =
===========================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ukc!warwick!kingpol!titan.kingston.ac.uk!as_m332
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: what is CEOTTK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 07:56:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Network News)
Organization: Kingston Polytechnic
Lines: 14
Nntp-Posting-Host: tamara


    I remember reading somewhere that the encounters were classified
    as :

    1 - Seeing a UFO from a distance
    2 - Seeing a UFO and it's occupants, without making contact
    3 - Seeing the UFO and making contact with it's occupants

-s

Sean Eaton, Maths, Kingston Poly, England
Internet:   [e-mail]
JANET (UK): [e-mail]
UUCP:    ...!uunet!mcsun!ukc!uk.ac.king.titan!as_m332
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From: [e-mail] (Moss Madden)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: mysterious British deaths
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 07:58:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Liverpool
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2477 alt.conspiracy:8173

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Fibre Optics) says:
>
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>
>
>[stuff about mysterious deaths of British Scientists deleted]
>
>>Anybody have any ideas to contribute?
>
>These people mainly worked for GEC/Marconi and the latest one is the
>most interesting. He'd applied for two patents on `Stardrives' shortly
>before he was found, in a lake tied to something heavy. If you die
>before your patent is granted, your patent dies with you.
>Scary huh ?

One of the suicides was really surreal. The guy tied a noose around his neck,
the other end to a tree or something, and drove off at speed
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ukc!cam-eng!jpmg
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Gosling)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: mysterious British deaths
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 12:12:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: @eng.cam.ac.uk
Organization: Cambridge University Engineering Department, UK
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Nntp-Posting-Host: dsl.eng.cam.ac.uk

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Moss Madden) writes:
[ defence related scientists mysterious 'suicides' ]
>One of the suicides was really surreal. The guy tied a noose around his neck,
>the other end to a tree or something, and drove off at speed

Didn't another commit suicide by jabbing himself in the backside with a
hypodermic, and then hurling himself off the Severn Bridge while unconscious?
8-)

-patrick.

--
Patrick Gosling,                                         [e-mail]
Cambridge Univ. Engineering Dept., UK.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: what is CEOTTK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 04:58:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Charles Evans)
says:
>
>In the title CLose Encounters of the THIRD KIND ...
>
>what does the 'third kind mean'??
>
>Just wondering... anyone read my post of my encounter last nigtht?
>
>THe Chuckmeister
>[e-mail]
>`
>--
>
> +----------------------------------------\\         -------------
> |  Internet: [e-mail]     __o   \\    --------------------
> |  Bitnet:   [e-mail]     \<,    >>   Jesus Christ is Lord
> |  Identity: Charles Edward Evans  ()/ ()  //    --------------------
> +----------------------------------------//         --------------
>
>  "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call HERESY,
>   so worship I the God of my fathers, BELIEVING ALL THINGS which are
>   WRITTEN in the law and in the prophets."
>                                               -- Acts 24:14

A brief rundown of what I know:

Close Encounters...

1st Kind - Sightings of UFO's, etc... but with no evidence left behind
2nd Kind - Landings of UFO's with some type of evidence left (burn marks
               or something similar)
3rd Kind - Sighting/Contact with alien from UFO.
4th Kind - Abduction by said alien from UFO.
5th Kind - ??? I'm not sure ??? Does this encounter mean you "BECOME"
               an alien or something??? Someone else help me out here.

Hope this information is useful.

George Newell
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 15:40:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 41
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Wed, 16 Oct 1991 00:06:31 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> Kellan Hatch writes: "why don't they (the ETs) send the identical
> message.." etc.
>
> Maybe they already HAVE...to maybe thousands who are ready to
> receive.

    Then why are those thousands keeping it a secret?  The few who do come
forward can't seem to agree on much so they must not be among the thousands
who got the *true* message.

> Maybe there is a subtlety in the telepathy for a variety of reasons..
> after all, if they made their presence known to ALL it might throw
> the whole world in fear (what a thought:  they MIGHT have better
> technology than our missile systems!!)

    If that is the case, why are they making themselves known at all?  Don't
forget that one of the channelled messages presented here was delivered to the
UN.

>And what of the world economy?
> And each major country/power wanting the technology for itself and
> its' own selfish needs/powers?  The list can go on and on...

What technology?  None of the messages I've seen have any technology in them.
They all seem to talk in very vague terms about universal brotherhood or the
great pyramid.

> I think it was Einstein who said imagination was greater than
> knowledge.  Think about it.  He sought his own answers.  You must
> seek yours.  No one else is going to give them to you simply
> by your demanding them.  The Quest for truth can be a long inward
> journey, not something demanded on a newsgroup.

    I agree with you completely on this Kathy.  A person's religious and
philisophical beliefs should be completely his own. But I think we are talking
about two different things here.  There are people who claim that we are being
visited by beings from other worlds.  There are people who claim to have
telepathic abilities.  I don't think these are the types of issues that should
be accepted on faith alone.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!think.com!linus!linus!community-chest.mitre.org!heimberg
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Heimberger)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Discoveries?
Summary: It ain't *our* fault!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 16:17:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA
Lines: 58
Nntp-Posting-Host: community-chest.mitre.org

Eric Herrera writes:
>In [e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Coffman) writes:
>>With Columbus' aniversary of discovering the new world looming,
>
>I know alot of people will probably think I'm being picky, but oh well.

Not a flame, guy, but I'm wondering what to do...

>The only thing that Columbus "discovered" was that he screwed up on
>his way to India.

Sure, 13th century navigation...

>That and how easy it is submit an entire society
>to slavery, pillaging and genocide when you're a brutal liar and that
>society is unprepared for an invasion.

Inexcusable, an extraordinarily bleak part of world history...

>Sorry for the vitriol, people, but I'm Apache (mostly), and this
>"celebration" of 500 years of the rape, torture, robbery, deceit,
>relocation, annihiliation, etc. of the first inhabitants of this land
>(not to mention the land itself) is insulting and crude.  Don't
>intelligent people recognize that?

Yeah, intelligent people recognize that, but what can they do about
it?  Should they all pile back on their boats and go back to where
there ancestors came from so the Native Americans can have it all
back?  Should that include the Africans, or only the Europeans?  Are
they *personally responsible* and *personally liable* for 500 years of
bad stuff?  Do they sue the Spanish, British, French, Dutch, Portugese,
etc. for reparations on behalf of all Native Americans?  Just what can
they do about it, now, 500 years after the fact?

You have no argument from me that greed for money, land, and power 500
years ago (and some would say even today, but I won't address that
issue) led to some horrific bad times for people all over the world,
but what can we do about it now?

Should we have let Saddam Hussein have Kuwait, or did the alliance do
the right thing in kicking him out?

Have we progressed at all?

I suppose the answer to that question lies in where one lives and how
much cash he/she has in their pocket.  So it still all boils down to
greed... the "haves" think things are OK, and the "have nots" want to
become "haves".

Regards,

Jeff H...

==============================================================================
Jeffrey A. Heimberger                  "Only two things are infinite, the
MITRE C3 Software Engineering Center    universe and human stupidity, and I'm
[e-mail]      not sure about the former" - Einstein
==============================================================================
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!mixcom!jjwwjj
From: [e-mail] (Robotic Systems)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO SIGHTING REPORTED IN KAZAKHSTAN, SOVIET UNION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 18:08:38 GMT
Organization: Milwaukee Information eXchange (Public access Usenet, Email)
Lines: 9

Does anyone know more about this story which was reported by TASS on 10/16/91?



--
===============================================================================
Clint Laskowski        U.S. MAIL:  P. O. Box 552, Cudahy, Wisconsin  53110-0552
ROBOTIC SYSTEMS         INTERNET:  [e-mail]      VOICE: [phone]
===============================================================================
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!ukma!psuvax1!rutgers!bach.rutgers.edu!thibaud
From: [e-mail] (Francois P. Thibaud)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: what is CEOTTK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 19:49:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 35

[e-mail] writes:

[...]

>A brief rundown of what I know:

>Close Encounters...

>1st Kind - Sightings of UFO's, etc... but with no evidence left behind
>2nd Kind - Landings of UFO's with some type of evidence left (burn marks
>               or something similar)
>3rd Kind - Sighting/Contact with alien from UFO.
>4th Kind - Abduction by said alien from UFO.
>5th Kind - ??? I'm not sure ??? Does this encounter mean you "BECOME"
>               an alien or something??? Someone else help me out here.

>Hope this information is useful.

>George Newell
>[e-mail]

Hi !

As far as I know, 4th and 5th encounters differ by the results on the
person:

- 4th do not imply any particular consequences on the behavior
of the subject;

- 5th implies a change in the behavior as a result of mental,
psychological and/or spiritual (?) interactions with aliens.  I've red
amazing stuff about this; I don't remenber the title know, but I'll
try to find it back.

Francois P. THIBAUD  10/16/1991.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!apollo!mcn
From: [e-mail] (Michael McNulty)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Billy Meier
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 19:50:41 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET posting account)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 30
Nntp-Posting-Host: roddy.ch.apollo.hp.com


I just saw a videotape called "The Beam Ships" about Billy Meier.  I have
also read "Light Years", so nothing on the film was a big surprise to me.
(Best part of "Light Years" was two pictures of him.  One of them was
obviously reversed, as the first one showed the bottom of his left arm
missing and the other picture showed the bottom of his right arm missing.
I remember thinking "Now, that's impressive!".)

It made me think of a few questions, though:

Is Meier still alive?  The tape often referred to his failing health and
also to the assassination attempts (according to him, 7, at last count).

Are people still flocking to his farm?  Or has some other cult taken over
as the place to be?  Gulf Breeze, maybe?

Since people post channeled messages from the Pleiades, have any of these
messages spoken of their buddy Billy?

He seems to me to be a fraud, but has it ever been proven?  I know that a
model (models?) were found in his barn and he hasn't produced negatives of
his pictures (best pictures in the biz, including Gulf Breeze, in my
opinion), but has anyone actually seen how stages the photos (if, in fact,
he really does)?

Any other comments about Meier?

Thanks,

Mike
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq
From: [e-mail] (Kevin D. Quitt)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 21:11:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA
Lines: 25
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16449 alt.paranormal:3391 alt.alien.visitors:2485 talk.religion.newage:7297

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Here is a quote and a reference for the reptilian brain idea. I haven't
>read the article though. Don
>Deep inside your brain there exists a small but powerful primeval center that
>is every bit as violent and reptilian in nature as the brain of a lizard or
>crocodile.
>
>quoted from an article called Ritual and Deceit by Mary
>Long Science Digest Nov/Dec 1980


    Puh-lease.  This has nothing to do with a reptilian brain-stem.  The
brain-stem is "reptilian" because phisiologically and functionally it is
(almost) identical to the brain-stem found in reptiles.  This has nothing
whatsoever to do with "a small but powerful primeval center..."



--
 _
Kevin D. Quitt              srhqla!venus!kdq     [e-mail]
3D systems, inc.            26081 Avenue Hall    Valencia, CA 91355
VOICE [phone] x430   FAX [phone]

                96.37% of all statistics are made up.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re:  UFO Conference Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 17:43:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 19
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2486 sci.skeptic:16452

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>>So someone's flying a boomerang-shaped craft around California.  Does that
>>make it alien?
>
>Of COURSE someone's flying a boomerang-shaped craft around California.  Haven't
>either of you seen photos of the stealth fighter and the stealth bomber?
>They're both flying wings (i.e., boomerang-shaped).  And guess where they build
>them?

I know about the stealth bomber, but I was assuming that the original
poster would be smart enough to know about it (maybe that was a bad
assumption?) and thus the craft must be some *other* black project.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  GULF BREEZE and CIA/DOD Plots
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 17:48:32 GMT
References: <oecheruo.687110891@silver> <[e-mail]> <eric.687327477@brolga>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 17

One of the problems with Ed's credibility is that while other people in the
area see UFOs, they're just red lights.  Nobody has seen or photographed
anything like what Ed has seen and photographed.

Another problem is that a UFO model was found in Ed's house after he moved
out of it.  It doesn't look exactly like what he's photographed though, and
it could've been placed there to discredit him.

I have to admit that I haven't heard of any way the video could've been
faked.    There's been a lot of discussion about how the photographs could've
been faked, though.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  More on Crop Circles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 17:54:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Donald Yett) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David M. Schiff) writes:
>>
>>4) This past summer, Japanese researchers cordoned off a field with
>>   burglar detection equipment over night.  The next morning when the
>>   fog lifted there was a "circle" in the field. Infrared detectors
>>   didn't detect any bodies in the field.
>Do you have any more information on this?  I would really like to know how
>they were forwarned (if THEY didn't make it themselves) as to the time and
>place of the circle.

Nobody said they knew the time and place of the circle in advance!  At one
point the circles apparently were appearing so frequently that it wasn't a
bad idea to watch a field in hopes that one would happen to appear there.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro
Subject: Re:  Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 03:35:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 42
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2489 sci.skeptic:16453 sci.astro:12002

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Nick Andrew) writes:
>I am reminded by a book published by a New Zealander, an airline pilot, in
>the mid-1970s. This person used a photograph of something strange at the
>bottom of the ocean (it looked like an antenna array) and a lot of dubious
>mathematical junk to assert that:
>
>* The earth is covered by a network of force lines, with these antennas
>   acting as collectors;
>
>* Aliens are (or were) using those networks to fly around the earth using
>  antigravity;
>
>* The US government knows all about this;
>
>* It was only through the actions of those antennas and particular timing
>  that atomic bombs could explode.

I suspect you're talking about Bruce Cathie.  Despite the fact that I'm
interested in antigravity and related subjects, I've never read any of his
books, largely because of the allegations that his math is garbage.  I
hadn't heard the part about the atomic bombs, so thanks for mentioning it.
I definitely won't be spending any money on his books anytime soon.

>>  ***************************************************************************
>> *  COMING NEXT:  My discussions with Wendelle Stevens regarding Grey        *
>> *         aliens from the Reticulum Star cluster and his playing of a       *
>> *         cassette tape of the sounds of one of their space ships.           *
>>  ***************************************************************************
>
>
>This quote makes it sound like the poster is pulling our collective legs.

The grey aliens from Zeta Reticuli are a common subject in UFOlogical
circles (yes, even some of the serious ones.)  Wendelle Stevens is also a
common (and controversial) subject.  I don't know anything about this
alleged tape recording though, so I can't comment on that part.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 23:17:23 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 41

Kellan Hatch asks several questions, etc:

Why are they making themselves known at all?

Maybe to prepare the people on this planet to ascend to a higher
consciousness.  As far as many people receiving 'different' type
messages, that could be explained this way:  the thought/concept
may be the same, but there could be 100 different interpretations
by 100 different people.

When Hazrat Inayat Khan (sufi master, mystic) lectured his mureeds
back in 1923, he realized how different people interpreted his words
in different ways.  The same can certainly be true for differing
consciousnesses who hear the same message differently.

Maybe the Ets simply do not wish to throw the whole world into
mayhem/shock.  Seeing as how greedy and power mongering some countries
are, maybe they have loving concern that this form of lower consciousness
could be very destructive in a wide open revealment of higher technology,
etc.  Maybe this is their form of love and caring.

You ask why many don't come forward to share their messages.  Many HAVE.
And been laughed at.  Ridiculed.  Made fun of, etc.  The books written
about those who have courageously stepped forward to tell their story
certainly will make others think TWICE before they tell their story
which to others may sound totally not realistic.  It is called protecting
your vulnerability and not wanting to be hurt.  And this world *is*
a hurting world.

Also, it is possible that higher intelligence is willing to begin
to implant higher technology ideas into the minds that would not misuse
the higher knowledge.  In the hands of one who is power hungry (such
as some politicians and various leaders), such knowledge could end
up harming many because the person receiving it has not had his ego
purified.

Rather than disbelieving and thinking all of this is crazy, is it
not far better to be open minded, and be willing to be shown that
one may not have all the answers?

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: what is CEOTTK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 23:12:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 5
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 14 Oct 91 18:11:11 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> Just wondering... anyone read my post of my encounter last nigtht?

    Yes.  Still waiting for details.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!yang.earlham.edu!joeo
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 91 00:48:46 GMT
Lines: 13

>I am not interested in arguments, I am interested in truths.  And this is
>my Journy and not yours.

This is not a flame, Kathy, but isn't argument(or at least discussion)
the purpose of this newsgroup?

What I get out of your post is this :You can't possibly know what is in my
head so don't try and tell me.

This may be true but it doesn't make for much of a discussion.


                            JOeO
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!milton!uw-beaver!cornell!batcomputer!theory.TC.Cornell.EDU!homer
From: [e-mail] (Homer Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: I AM NAPOLEON
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 91 03:45:11 GMT
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Distribution: usa
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Lines: 64
Nntp-Posting-Host: theory.tc.cornell.edu

>
>Have you not wondered, for example, why all those who claim to be
>reincarnated are always reincarnations of Cleopatra and General Patton

     Nope, never entered my mind.

     People when they are unable to confront the present will
withdraw into the past, specifically into the past personalities
of those who WON, who overwhelmed them, who they consider to be SAFE
TERMINALS to be.

     If you spend some time with these people trying to find out who
they REALLY were, you will find that they are hiding behind the
personages that they claim they were so that you won't find out
what they really did.  No confessions around here.

     If being oneself is intolerable, one becomes someone else.

     This IS the common thread of psychosis, to become what you fear most,
and so is found in insane asylums where everyone is out of valence, being
others, and everyone is hiding like crazy behind all the mean nasty
things others did to them so they don't have to admit WHAT THEY DID
that they can't confront.

     Napoleon is walking around somewhere, and one day he will realize
who he is and probably won't be too willing to admit it.  No one
would believe him.  Hitler is walking around somewhere too.  So is
Jesus.  And Buddha.  Etc.

     Now some of you MAY have been great personalities, but remember
that great people have great responsibility, and great disasters can
arise out of what you do as a great person.  Thus remembering your
greatest life or life of greatest artistic, scientific, or religious
achievement can mean remembering your greatest pain, shame, regret
and wishing you had never BEEN.

     You can't remember your past lives because it is more comfortable
believing (with out a shred of evidence) that you live only once
and go to a comfortale grave forever more.  At least your
enemies can't come and punish you forever.  There is peace in dying.
Having failed to attain the true peace at the top
people opt for the ersatz peace of the bottom, death.

     But you can't really die, once you die you realize the jig is up,
so people have to become something that is GOING to die and they
have to prolong the process of dying for as long as possible so that
they can continue in the comfortable illusion that they WILL die and
that one day everything will be fine because they won't BE anymore.

     Sheesh, what a treadmill.

     If you can't remember something about your past, whether it is
this life time or last, there is a REASON you can't remember and it
ain't because there is nothing there to remember.  People who fall
for that lie, have a reason to do so.

     Stop mucking around.  Get the damn confession.

     They will thank you for it.  Possibly even PAY you for it.

     The RELIEF is magnificent.  But its hard to come by.


     Homer Wilson Smith  [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!chroma
From: [e-mail] (Steve Kudlak)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 91 05:58:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Cygnus Support, Palo Alto
Lines: 46
Nntp-Posting-Host: cygnus.com
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of Tue, 15 Oct 1991 10:45:03 GMT


Being somewhat of a weird techno-artist type, if I may self-style
my self as so, I guess I will add my 11 cents worth (used to be
2 cents...but with inflation you know).

To me it seems that there is a bit of the "One picture is a 1000
words" sort of thing going on here. The problem is that a picture
often needs a lot more context. For example a friend of mine thought
that his great-grand-parents were always depressed because they never
smiled in their pictures. Since they were taken if Great Britain,
I explained that at the the time and place those pictures were taken
it was considered not good form to smile for photographs. So in a
way it does seem that visual images are often higher bandwidth but
less clear. Although this is not always the case. Most people can look
at the picture of a Sumerian Military Commander and >know< pretty
clearly what the picture is about.

To me it seems that's what these sort of things that relate to
"feeling-toned" and "Thought-Image" sorts of things. Also the
images that are attractive and interesting to some are repulsive
to others. I have a mixed feelings about all this "psychic" stuff
and don't know how to much water it holds. I know of no psychic
who I can for example relaiably find my apartment based on their
putative abilities. But I do know of such people who have a downright
uncanny habit of knowing what I was thinking or doing at a certain
time. But it is almost always presented in these emotional-image terms.

If alien beings were trying to communicate with us, and wanted it to
be clear, one would hope they would use something that was clear,
easy-to-understand and as easy as possible to understand. In humans
using putative psychic reception just doesn't usually seem to work
over-all to produce the desired effect


Now if humans do have psychic abilities, and one wanted to sort
of hang-around in the background and exert a general indirect and
sort of "artistic" influence then trying to communicate with people
by pushing thought-images at them might work. I mean human artists
try to do this all the time, and there is some indication
that this is what is going on. Now what it is exactly that is trying
to do these things and what it is it wants to do is rather still
up for grabs.


            Have fun,
            Sends Steve
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!chroma
From: [e-mail] (Steve Kudlak)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 91 06:15:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Cygnus Support, Palo Alto
Lines: 41
Nntp-Posting-Host: cygnus.com
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of Tue, 15 Oct 1991 10:45:03 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (carol zarbock) writes:

   Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
   Path: hoptoad!uunet!wupost!unlinfo.unl.edu!czarbock
   From: [e-mail] (carol zarbock)
   Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
   Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1991 10:45:03 GMT
   Lines: 22

<<some stuff deleted>>

   I rather like the idea I once saw in Omni magazine that
   contact may come in the form of a chemical message.  Anyone
   know anything about that?

   Regards,
   Carol


Well at the risk of starting another flame war...It has been
suggested by various people that psychoactive mushrooms are
exactly such a chemical message. However this has the same
problem as "psychic transmissions" which is that it isn't very
clear in the state as we currently experience it. And like
psychic messages, it would have to be much more clear, for example
if there were a plant, chemical mixture etc. that when someone
took it, no matter who they were they would get very clearly the
same sort of messages as everyone else, then it would be close to
what you suggest. Especially if it was something of the form of
"take your radio telescope and point it here and do this type of
signal analysis, and you will find out something interesting..." or
"here do this, this and this and gather these materials and try this
and something will happen" and the something would have to be
quite clear and unequivocal. So I dunno about psychoactive mushrooms
and chemical messengers but it is an interesting idea. Just
producing something that clearly elucidated some previously unknown
aspect of neurochemistry would be a start...


            Have Fun,
            Sends Steve
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Coincidences?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 91 06:01:15 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 4

My WordPerfect Spellchecker does not recognise Illinois, but it suggests aliens
as an alternative.      <{8^(   .

A.S.MILGATE
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!acsu.buffalo.edu!ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu!v127mhsk
From: [e-mail] (Strider)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pleiadian Transcripts questions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 91 14:53:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: University at Buffalo
Lines: 42
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Nntp-Posting-Host: ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>OK, I'm new to the news-group, but I've read some of the Transcripts
>and it strike me that they suffer from the same kind of problems
>all the channeled messages I've heard suffer from:
>
>a) They talk about cosmic peace, love etc.  and these are all
>worthy things to pursue.  How do we know that their concept
>of these rather subjective ideals are the same as ours? We don't
>know what joy and happiness mean to them.

I read the transcripts and I got the impression that their goals would be
perfectly acceptable to me.  They talk about something akin to a universal
alliance where every race accepts and respects other races.
I could look for specific quotes if you insist.

>b) They all use a sort of mystical, sub-old-testament language.
>Why? To add intellectual credibility?  Surely if these messages
>are channeled through a 20th century person, the messages would
>come out in 20th century American English.  Why would they want
>to sound pompous and/or ridiculous if they want us to take their
>messages seriously?

I believe they really talk that way, or the equivalent in their language.  As
long as the transmissions were in Earth Swiss (or whatever language Meier
spoke) they would be recorded that way.  I believe there were instances where
Meier didn't understand the meaning of what Semjase was saying and she needed
to clarify.

>c) They're not very specific are they?  If they only want to get
>in touch with us to tell us to be good to each other and prepare
>for some unknown day of judgement etc.  why bother? We all know
>we should be nice to each other, but we're not.  If they don't
>have anything new to say (which they don't seem to) why go through
>all the hassle of this message transmission?

They never really say why they are bothering with all of this visiting stuff.
However, the transmissions were Meier's insistence.  The people he was talking
to wanted these transmissions and Meier thought it was a good idea.  This was
just one of a few attempts of Meier to validate his experiences.

I'd be glad to continue this conversation.
-Strider
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!sgraziano
From: [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: alien visitors I know
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 06:00:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 12

Just because people have strange behaviours and activities does not mean
that they are necessarily aliens.  So they guy is messy and has an
alternate fancy for pets.  (Rats are actually good pets when raised clean
I hear)

I don't mean to discredit you, he may very well be an alien. I don't care.
What I do care about is that it is the type of thinking that induces
racism and paranoia.

Any ideas?
Steven Graziano
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 91 15:27:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 43
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Wed, 16 Oct 1991 23:17:23 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> Kellan Hatch asks several questions, etc:
>
> Why are they making themselves known at all?
>
> Maybe to prepare the people on this planet to ascend to a higher
> consciousness.  As far as many people receiving 'different' type
> messages, that could be explained this way:  the thought/concept
> may be the same, but there could be 100 different interpretations
> by 100 different people.

    In that case, mabey the aliens should abandon their attempts at telepathy
(which you suggest they use because it is a superior form of communication)
and resort to plain old boring radio.

> When Hazrat Inayat Khan (sufi master, mystic) lectured his mureeds
> back in 1923, he realized how different people interpreted his words
> in different ways.  The same can certainly be true for differing
> consciousnesses who hear the same message differently.

    Then why can millions of people read the same newspaper and get pretty much
the same story?  Perhaps Hazrat Inayat Khan could have spoken a bit more
clearly.


> You ask why many don't come forward to share their messages.  Many HAVE.
> And been laughed at.  Ridiculed.  Made fun of, etc.  The books written

    No, I asked why the proposed thousands with the SAME message didn't step
forward.  I know about the others.  Their stories are contradictory.

> Rather than disbelieving and thinking all of this is crazy, is it
> not far better to be open minded, and be willing to be shown that
> one may not have all the answers?

    I haven't called anyone crazy.  You are prejudging me as closed-minded.  I
would not be wasting my time with this if I wasn't willing to hear some
answers.  The problem is that I have heard nothing more substantial or worthy
of my trust than I could find in a comic book.  The argument has become
circular now.  I say, "give me a reason to believe" and you say, "just be open
minded" and I say, "I AM open minded" and you say, "then just believe."
Maybe we should stop meeting like this.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!cbmvax!amix!anuurn!ffoire
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Orrok)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Implants, end of world, etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 91 09:12:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: the Hani homeworld. (Wilmette, IL)
Lines: 17

[e-mail] (Donald Yett) writes:
...
> and the BCCI trial!  The government abounds with conspiracy!  Why do you think
> the Swiss Banking system is still anonymous (How many American politicians hav
> accounts there I wonder)?  How would you explain such a thing as alien beings

I heard on the radio a few months ago that the Swiss were going to
de-secrefy all the accounts so that the War On Rights could find out
if any illegal drug money was stashed there...

Was this decision reversed?

je<FF>
--
If you can't trust people to govern themselves,
why would you ever trust them to govern others?
-- [e-mail] -- [e-mail] -- [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!yang.earlham.edu!julianm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Kathy and Channeling UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 91 08:44:53 GMT
Lines: 89

In message <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:


>Each person must find his own truth.  No one, and I do mean NO ONE
>will bring you your answers or arguments on a silver platter, Julian.
>When you have your own direct experiences, you will realize how
>impossible it is to even *try* to convince another of what you have
>either experienced or have *realized*.  It is all individual.

No, answers are not served on silver platters, they are arrived at by
careful thought, consideration and feeling.  That is *precisely* why you
have to work at them.  (This means things like defending your beliefs, by
the way...) I am fully aware that everyone, in the final analysis, must find
her own truth.  More power to you if this is yours.
But it is one thing to hold dear a truth and expect, quite rightly, not to
have to defend it intellectually and quite another to go about your merry
way posting your truth liberally about newsgroups and then, when
confronted with demands for proof (and all those other yukky things) to
rear back and respond, quite petulantly, "...I do not engage in arguing
with the mind in this matter..."

>I am not interested in arguments, I am interested in truth.  And my
>journey is mine, and not yours.


You say you are interested in truth?  Well, how exactly does one arrive at
"truth" without argument?  To quote a friend, truth is not something
handed down from God or a mountaintop; it is what we *arrive* at after
careful thought, feeling and consideration.  By asking me, or telling me,
to simply accept or not accept what you say as true is akin to accepting
truth as if it were...handed to you on a silver platter.

Your assertion that "...my journey is mine, not yours," is misleading.
It is misleading because by the very nature of your assertion you suggest
that *I* suggested that you somehow don't have a pesonal path to follow.
I never get even close to suggesting that.
Worship linoleum floor tiling for all I care; if that's your calling/path/way/
I'm not going to tell you it's not for you to decide.  And beyond that, Kathy,
what that assertion of yours is, is blatantly unfair.  You have a lot of nerve
trying to use the standard affirm-thyself argument against someone who doesn't
question your right to be a certain way to begin with, because what that
is is a cheap tactic to bring into play a level of emotion designed only to
hinder and break down argument rather than facilitate it.

>About Jesus breaking bread with sinners:  perhaps not to be confused
>here with devils.  Jesus may very well have been breaking bread with
>people whose minds and hearts were beginning to open and who desired
>truth.  Devils are in another category altogether.  Devils deny truth:
>both in themselves and in others.

Point taken; the distinction between sinners and Devils can be fairly made
and defended.

And further...

Re: mind trips, the heart...so you know from the heart or you don't, do you?
Somehow, it's hard to argue against a person who has been chosen as the
Universal Depository of Truth.  Interesting, also, that this "truth" can only
be "known" in the heart, and is therefore completely exempt from the Rules
of Common Sense!  Strange...what kind of truth is that, which can't stand
light of logic and argument?

You say you've had direct experiences, and tell me that when I have mine I
will "...realize how impossible it is to even *try* to convince another of
what you have either experienced or *realized*..."  Well, it seems to me
that the bulk of your correspondence on this newsgroup to me and others
over the past few days has been devoted to exactly that kind of
evangelical activity.  Inconsistent, yes?  (Or is this another facet of
logic that I am supposed to abandon to experience this "mental death" so
that I can know with my heart?)

Looking forward to continuing this if you so desire...

Yours,

Julian/Felix
Send out the dogs!


    - Julian T-Cell (Lymphocyte)
      ECMLVDC
    - Light Terminal Operator

        -== Earlham College MoonLight VAX Driving Corps ==-
         "Bad craziness, fast terminals, and nothing better to do."



Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!yang.earlham.edu!julianm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: JOeO's response...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 91 08:53:26 GMT
Lines: 37

[e-mail] responds to Kathy/Redheaded Goddess...


K
>>I am not interested in arguments, I am interested in truths.  And this is
>>my Journy and not yours.
K
>This is not a flame, Kathy, but isn't argument(or at least discussion)
>the purpose of this newsgroup?
JOeO
>What I get out of your post is this :You can't possibly know what is in my
>head so don't try and tell me.
JOeO
>This may be true but it doesn't make for much of a discussion.

                        >    JOeO


Yo, Joe!

Concise, well argued.  Nice job...

P.S...Hope I didn't screw up the arrows...

Julian/Felix
Send out the dogs!


    - Julian T-Cell (Lymphocyte) MC Superfly Cheez-Whiz
      ECMLVDC
    - Light Terminal Operator

        -== Earlham College MoonLight VAX Driving Corps ==-
         "Bad craziness, fast terminals, and nothing better to do."



Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!uupsi!dorsaidm!kizn
From: [e-mail] (Daniel Delvalle)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: what is CEOTTK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 91 19:33:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Dorsai Diplomatic Mission,  New York's Computer Consulate
Lines: 49

[e-mail] (Charles Evans) writes:

> In the title CLose Encounters of the THIRD KIND ...
>
> what does the 'third kind mean'??
>

  Hi Charles,

   As I remember, CEOTTK....is from Dr. Alan J.Heniks system of cataloging
ufos for entry into his Computer for examineing UFO data.

  It goes somewhat like this...

   D.D.          ......Daylight Disks, or any disks seen at a distance.

   N.L.          ......Nocturnal Lights...seen , of course at night.

   CE I          ... Close Encounters ..Seen close up, but No trace of
it.(Something like D.D , I guess but much closer to the observer.)

   CE II        .... Close Encounter Second Kind, Seen close up and Leaves
evidence, such as holes in the ground, burn marks, broken tree branches and
such.

   CE III      ..... Close encounter Third Kind, Close observation, and
Contact with any occupants of craft. ( Keyword is Contact.)



  Dr. Henik was the 1st to coin these phrases..(BTW, He did a cameo
apperance in the Movie CE3K, he was there when the obsevers where on top of
the mountain...(Glasses, gray beard.)
   After or about the time of his death, another classification was
coined...CEIVK Or Close Encounter of the 4th kind....this reffers to an
Alien Abduction, and examination...usually without the abductees knowlage.
  If you don't know about this last phenonema, please read the book
"Incedint at Copley Woods", by Bud Hopkins. (New York). makes for Very
intresting reading.(I might be a bit off on the title of the book. perhaps
it was the Copley Woods affair?, but the author was definetly Bud Hopkins,
of NY.)

  I hope the abouve was of some help,

                     Danny.


 BTW, the LATE Dr.H. died sometime in the late 80's.

Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kathy and Channeling UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 91 19:33:10 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 26


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>
>You say you've had direct experiences, and tell me that when I have mine I
>will "...realize how impossible it is to even *try* to convince another of
>what you have either experienced or *realized*..."  Well, it seems to me
>that the bulk of your correspondence on this newsgroup to me and others
>over the past few days has been devoted to exactly that kind of
>evangelical activity.  Inconsistent, yes?  (Or is this another facet of
>logic that I am supposed to abandon to experience this "mental death" so
>that I can know with my heart?)
>

I enjoy reading Kathy's postings... if you don't.. then why do you?
Surely there are other areas of interest to you.. areas that have logic
and proof as a base.  Why are you here in alien visitors if you consider
the unproven to be frivilous?  You seem to be here only to discredit the
others.  But why would you have such a mission?  Why do you care what
Kathy thinks?

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 91 21:37:21 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 54

Kellan:

Let me put it to you this way:  a message on the radio is not
the same thing as light/energy/radiation transmission.  Have
you never gone away for a day or weekend to a spiritual retreat
or meditation?

Why should aliens use a public broadcast station to relay their
'messages' to a public that is hostile to them and not open to
love at a larger level?  Why should they even waste their time
to try to convince someone when that someone only shows skepticism
and argumentativeness of the ego?  However, for those who prove
their worthiness through love, kindness and good acts to their fellow
men, it is very possible that a telepathic communication (heart to
heart so to speak) may indeed occur.  The recipient may not get a
direct message per say, but it may be an inspiration of sorts, say
to go to the library and pick out a book very quickly without
much through, and be led to JUST THE RIGHT THING that they need, etc.

As far as you thinking they may all get the same message, the message
possibly *could* be the same but different for each person involved,
since each person has a unique life.  The whole idea here is to help
humanity to lift its' consciousness.

You know, they say we have free will here, and for an alien or higher
being to attempt to IMPOSE their thoughtforms would be wrong.  I think
a person has to show/demonstrate a GENUINE desire for expanding his
consciousness.

And Puh-lease...do not compare newspaper reading to being the same thing
as transmission of radiant energy (and Puh-=lease, do not ask me "what"
is radiant energy?)  If you want to read a fairly enlightening book
about energy, read THE BLACK BUTTERFLY by Richard Moss, M.D.  Newspapers
drivel on and on to an audience that loves the sensation of reading
about murder, violence, scandal, etc. etc.   It is definitely lower
consciousness activity.

This world and its' consciousness needs to be lifted up.  And that
will happen as EACH person individually works on changing and purifying
himself.  Not on arguments with one another about are aliens really
out there or not?  I think they are not only "out" there, they are
also "in" there too.

Think about it.

Note to Mary Stanley:  thanks much for your post and words of kindness.
Some people's egos (sufi term is nafs) just get a thrill out of
argument/debate.  With these types of people you never win anything...
better to leave them alone and wallow in their...whatever.  When
the heart is ready and opens, things can happen.  For those who know
not what I am talking about, I suggest you read some books by Hazrat
Inayat Khan (such as THE ART OF BECOMING, etc.).

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 91 22:14:48 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 35

This is an addendum to my previous post to Kellan Hatch:

Regarding the same message being given to many people, but
it being different.  Let me give an example:  the message
might be something like this:

"We love you and will guide/help you if you are open to the
 help we give"

The same message may go out to thousands, but the guidance will
be different/vary since individual is on his on unique life path
and may be in different grade/level/stage of evolution than the
guy next door.

BTW, I did not have that book title correct--it is:
The Art of Being and Becoming by Hazrat Inayat Khan.  The
Awakening of the Human Spirit is another.

Moss also wrote: The I that is We and How Shall I Live?

Another excellent book on energies is Joy's Way by W. Brugh Joy,
M.D.  Both Moss and Joy were M.D.s but had expansion experiences
and went into working more holistically with people.

Kathy
Here is a quote from Joy's book:
"By this time in this book it shouldn't be too difficult to conceive
that the human psyche is capable of creating thought forms (forms
in thought) that can influence matter, including the physical body.
Now I want tot alke about the similar process of creating entities--
fields of energy that can appear to take on the form of a human, or
animal or, for that matter, an angelic being, a demon or even an
Inner Teacher."

  --W. Brugh Joy, M.D.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!adelphi!ijameson
From: [e-mail] (Iain Jameson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Alternative 3
Keywords: April fools
Message-ID: <ijameson.687740425@adelphi>
Date: 17 Oct 91 23:00:25 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au

Correct me if I am wrong (I am relying on a very old memory)
but I believe that Alternative 3 was produced as an april
fools joke. If memory serves me right the date at the end of
the show was something like 1 april 1977.

I remember seeing this while I was in high school, and laughing
at some friends who took it seriously, until we pointed out the
date.

Just to make sure I have the correct program, a scene in the show
concerned viking (?) sending back movie pictures (!) of an object
moving under the sands of mars.
This sound right?

Iain
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!cernvax!chx400!bernina!prl
From: [e-mail] (Peter Lamb)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Implants, end of world, etc.
Message-ID: <prl.687766078@iis>
Date: 18 Oct 91 06:07:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Lines: 48
Nntp-Posting-Host: iis-gw

[e-mail] (Jeff Orrok) writes:

>[e-mail] (Donald Yett) writes:
>...
>> and the BCCI trial!  The government abounds with conspiracy!  Why do you think
>> the Swiss Banking system is still anonymous

The basic tenet of Swiss banking law is that the business between a bank and
its customer is just that, between the bank and its customer, provided that
the money being banked does not come from illegal (under Swiss law) sources.

>> (How many American politicians hav
>> accounts there I wonder)?

And how many American non-politicians? All you need to open an account with
a Swiss bank is a recognised ID (eg. passport) and some money. The interest
paid on your money is not great, though.

>> How would you explain such a thing as alien beings

To a Swiss banker? Impossible!

>I heard on the radio a few months ago that the Swiss were going to
>de-secrefy all the accounts so that the War On Rights could find out
>if any illegal drug money was stashed there...

The Swiss banking law has not been changed recently. What has changed is
the "gentleman's agreement" between the Swiss central bank and the other banks,
in particular to try to prevent anonymous accounts being opened by proxy;
the standard trick was to hire a lawyer to open an account for you; he would
than attempt to open an account in his name, but that you would have control over.
The secrecy of dealings between the lawyer and client was (mis)used to hide
the real identity of the client.

>Was this decision reversed?

No, but there was *very* strong resistance from both the banks and the
legal profession. Anyway, there are plenty of places with equally strong
banking secrecy laws and where effectively anonymous accounts can be opened.
Not all of them have Switzerland's reputation for political and financial
stability, though. But at the least the last one is fading a little,
Switzerland now has one of the highest inflation rates in Europe,
unemployment doubled in the last year (but only from a base of about 1%),
and there's just been a (small) Swiss bank go broke (Spar- und Leihkasse Thun),
because of its reckless property speculation.


Peter Lamb ([e-mail])
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Close Encounters
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 91 14:05:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 32

The late J. Allen Hynek constructed a system to categorize the various reports
concerning UFOs.  Originally there were three distinct categories pertaining
to a "Close Encounter."  They were defined as follows:

Daylight Disk - Any unexplained object seen at a distance of 500 feet or more
from the observer, and seen in daylight.

Nocturnal Light - Any unexplained object seen at a distance of 500 feet or
more from the observer, and seen at night.

Close Encounter of the First Kind (CE-I) - Any unexplained object seen at a
distance of 500 feet or less from the observer, without having any interaction
with the environment, including the observer.

Close Encounter of the Second Kind (CE-II) - Any unexplained object seen that
interacts with the environment, including landing traces, radiation readings,
broken branches, and effects to animals or biological life such as
electromagnetic effects, car stalling, radios affected, etc.

Close Encounter of the Third Kind (CE-III) - Any unexplained object seen that
features a being, and where contact has been made or attempted.

At the time that the categories were constructed, there were no provisions
made for the abduction phenomenon.  However, I understand that CE-IV has been
expanded to include this phenomenon.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!unlinfo.unl.edu!czarbock
From: [e-mail] (carol zarbock)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 91 10:37:28 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Lines: 6

I would like to respectfully submit that you, Kathy, are
indeed bordering on prosyltizing (however you spell it), as
one other poster suggested.

Respectfully,
Carol
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!gatech!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!dkuug!iesd!efa
From: [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 91 11:51:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: CS and Math, University of Aalborg, Denmark
Lines: 30
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16512 alt.paranormal:3399 alt.alien.visitors:2511 talk.religion.newage:7309

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jacques Guy) writes:
>
>
>
>>Maybe I AM wrong about the accepted theories of evolution, (and
>>I wouldn't be surprised if I was) but I thought that all life evolved from the
>>sea.  And after air-breathers developed, reptiles and mammals evolved.  The
>>common ancestor of reptiles and mammals could not be considered either (that's
>>the bit I'm not sure of... am I right or wrong?) and therefore we are not
>>*descended* from reptiles.  And if there are no reptiles in our ancestry, there
>>cannot possibly be anything reptilian about us.
>
>No-one said we were descended from reptiles (except creationists trying to
>argue ab absurdo). I have nephews and nieces (courtesy of my cousins and siblings).
>And I am not -- repeat NOT -- descended from them (would you believe?)
>And if there are no Anita's and Jean-Luc's et al. in my ancestry, there cannot
>possibly be anything Anita-like and Jean-Luc-like about me. Uh? Come again?

You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.
The arguments against them (Post-Darwin) are *very* strong
indeed. In my opinion even strong enough to totally dismissing them as
an attempt to replace religion with science.

I do not claim to be an expert in this field (because I am not), but
you should try to do some research on your own. I think you would
be very surprised of what you find - or rather of all the questions
you find.

Erik F. Andersen, Denmark
E-mail : [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!rayssd!plw
From: [e-mail] (Paul L. White)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Faking Gulf Breeze Video
Keywords: Gulf Breeze, Ed Walters
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 91 12:31:13 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Raytheon Company, Portsmouth RI
Lines: 36

Someone asked how the Ed Walter's video tape might have been faked.

I might suggest a Japanese paper lantern with a flashlight in it, suspended
from a large big game fishing pole.

I have reviewed this video tape many times to try to establish the whether or
not Walter's story holds up. The video is just not that impressive. The tape
that I have shows the camera emerging from some bushes at night with a bobbing
light in the distance; because of the distance the detail and size of the
object cannot be easily established. When I first viewed the tape, I felt the
whole thing was faked. . .the emerging from the bushes seemed like a director's
dramatic opening to the shot. However when I read the book, I was not so sure.
If the book was true, Ed's concealment in the bushes seems to be consistent with
the fact that he was actually pursued and persecuted by this UFO.

Nevertheless, when his previous criminal record leaked out (car theft, etc),
and his reputation for pranks was established, my skepticism once again came
to the forefront.

The single most convincing UFO film I have seen has been the film shot by
a camera crew in Guatemala. The story has it that the crew was filming a car
commercial when the cameraman was distracted by 'lights in the sky.' The
approximately 30 seconds of film shows a silvery object traversing the sky.
It is only somewhat impressive when viewed at normal speed. When slowed to
frame-by-frame however, the object performs jerky and radical maneuvers that
take it decidedly out of the 'possible balloon' or 'possible aircraft' category.Did I hear someone say 'camera motion?' Yes, I thought of this too. However,
there is a cumulus cloud against the blue sky to establish a frame of reference.Besides if they were indeed filming a car commercial, the camera mounting would
have to be of professional quality and very stable.

Of course, yes, Spielberg could have done the whole thing at Industrial Lights
and Magic in an afternoon, so again there is still considerable room for doubt.

=============================================================================
Paul White
plw@rayssdb                  My employer and I rarely share opinions
=============================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!nynexst.com!mirage!pjc
From: [e-mail] (Peter Colonel)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: alien visitors I know
Keywords: help me
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 91 15:20:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (For News purposes)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Peter Colonel)
Distribution: na
Organization: Nynex Science & Technology
Lines: 5

In article <[e-mail]>, cube03.csus.edu!luriete - Josh Lurie-Terrell writes:
|> I need help.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^

So does your friend...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!unido!mpirbn!p515dfi
From: [e-mail] (Daniel Fischer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  More on Crop Circles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 91 14:49:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Daniel Fischer)
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut fuer Radioastronomie, Bonn
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David M. Schiff) writes:
>>>4) This past summer, Japanese researchers cordoned off a field with
>>>   burglar detection equipment over night.  The next morning when the
>>>   fog lifted there was a "circle" in the field. Infrared detectors
>>>   didn't detect any bodies in the field.
>Nobody said they knew the time and place of the circle in advance!  At one
>point the circles apparently were appearing so frequently that it wasn't a
>bad idea to watch a field in hopes that one would happen to appear there.

Is there a sound reference for this story - or is it an Urban Legend in
the making? I'm wondering because the magazine SCIENCE in a recent
circles story quoted a *British* case of a circle forming with all
the ingredients of the story above: burglar detection equipment,
circle forming in the night, fog hampering the actual observation
of its formation. If both stories are correct, there's quite a
convincing case for real circles.



ZZ
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!wintermute!entropy
From: [e-mail] (Lawrence C. Foard)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 91 15:04:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 33
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16520 alt.paranormal:3402 alt.alien.visitors:2515 talk.religion.newage:7312
Nntp-Posting-Host: wintermute.wpi.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jacques Guy) writes:
>>No-one said we were descended from reptiles (except creationists trying to
>>argue ab absurdo). I have nephews and nieces (courtesy of my cousins and siblings).
>>And I am not -- repeat NOT -- descended from them (would you believe?)
>>And if there are no Anita's and Jean-Luc's et al. in my ancestry, there cannot
>>possibly be anything Anita-like and Jean-Luc-like about me. Uh? Come again?
>
>You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.

Anyone can be wrong. Of course creationist won't admit that they can be wrong.

>The arguments against them (Post-Darwin) are *very* strong
>indeed. In my opinion even strong enough to totally dismissing them as
>an attempt to replace religion with science.

What arguments? The only argument I ever see is "the bible says so" sorry this
doesn't cut it. I can't believe that we are arguing about mythology vs.
science on a network that would not exist if it were not for science. What has
mythology achieved (other than death and destruction).

>I do not claim to be an expert in this field (because I am not), but
>you should try to do some research on your own. I think you would
>be very surprised of what you find - or rather of all the questions
>you find.

Try computer simulated evolution, you will be surprised with the results it
can achieve in 8 hours of run time.
--
Disclaimer: Opinions are based on logic rather than biblical "fact".   ------
Hackers do it for fun.  | First they came for the drug users, I said   \    /
"Profesionals" do it for money. | nothing, then they came for hackers,  \  /
Managers have others do it for them. | I said nothing... STOP W.O.D.     \/
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: chanelling UFOs - questions for Kathy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Kathy,

    As you can tell, I am still quite skeptical about any information that
claims to be telepathic in origin.  Perhaps I need some clarification.  Would
you please answer some questions for me?

1) Does channelling require a special gift, or can anyone do it?

2) Do you channel?

3) Do you believe that I could do it?

4) How does one go about it?

5) If communication with UFO occupants is desired, how is this differentiation
   made, or is one merely a channel for any passing telepathic entity?

6) How can I differentiate a message of truth from one that is simply
   made-up?
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From: [e-mail] (Karen Millar)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 91 15:10:40 GMT
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[e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jacques Guy) writes:
>>>Maybe I AM wrong about the accepted theories of evolution, (and

>You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.

    The theories of evolution are being challenged even as we speak.
Check out the October issue of OMNI magazine for some hints and references
to the research that is going on. From there you should be able to
contact people, or be referred to scientific journals that will give
you a more complete picture of the evolving science of evolution  :-)

Your favorite blond and mine, Karen.

--
    Love is the answer...
    Communication Facilities Designer
    Freelance in the Land of Enchantment              Albuquerque, NM
    [e-mail]                             [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel A Ashlock)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
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Date: 18 Oct 91 19:51:22 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Karen Millar) writes:
> [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:
>
> >In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jacques
Guy) writes:
> >>>Maybe I AM wrong about the accepted theories of evolution, (and
>
> >You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.
>
>     The theories of evolution are being challenged even as we speak.
> Check out the October issue of OMNI magazine for some hints and references
> to the research that is going on. From there you should be able to
> contact people, or be referred to scientific journals that will give
> you a more complete picture of the evolving science of evolution  :-)
>
> Your favorite blond and mine, Karen.
>

   Omni?  Mff Mff Mff (gurgl gurgl) -wheeze-

   What _did_ they say?

Dan
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin D. Quitt)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 91 20:57:42 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Karen Millar) writes:
>[e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:
>
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jacques Guy) writes:
>>>>Maybe I AM wrong about the accepted theories of evolution, (and
>
>>You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.
>
>    The theories of evolution are being challenged even as we speak.
>Check out the October issue of OMNI magazine for some hints and references
>to the research that is going on. From there you should be able to
>contact people, or be referred to scientific journals that will give
>you a more complete picture of the evolving science of evolution  :-)
>

    This article does nothing to refute evolution.  What it states is
that some single-celled creatures have the ability to mutate in response
to a lack of nutrition in their surroundings.

    The only thing this challenges is the idea that the growth of a new
colony capable of feeding from the new environment comes from a few
individuals that had that capability to begin with, and the new colony
consist of their descendents.  This idea is certainly true in higher
(i.e.  multi-cellular) organisms, but apparently not in single-cells.

    The idea actually makes a great deal of sense.  "Hey - there's no food
out there - I'll starve - maybe if I mix up some of my genes, I can find
a way to eat something out there (repeat until there's food out there)"
--
 _
Kevin D. Quitt              srhqla!venus!kdq     [e-mail]
3D systems, inc.            26081 Avenue Hall    Valencia, CA 91355
VOICE [phone] x430   FAX [phone]

                96.37% of all statistics are made up.
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: channeling UFOs - questions for Kathy
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Date: 18 Oct 91 21:52:33 GMT
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Kellan:  Here are my answers to your questions.

1)  I think 'channeling' requires an openness

2)  I transfer energies in my Reiki work, and do Therapeutic
    Touch (trained by Dora Kunz who was head of The Theosophical
    Society in Wheaton for many years and worked jointly with
    Delores Krieger, R. N.--who later wrote the book on Therapeutic
    Touch).  Note:  ANY person can do therapeutic touch who has
    compassion and caring for others.  It is recognized in medical
    communities and many nurses presently do it.

3)  Yes - if you are open and sincere and create a field of openness
    and attitude and are willing to discard erroneous belief systems,
    etc. (becoming like a child, so to speak...being willing to learn
    and not believing you already know everything there is to know)

4)  Dedication to serve; in the healing arts a desire to help others
    with compassion

5)  I do not know for sure.

6)  Practice of discernment and intuiting intuition correctly/accurately
    (not necessarily an easy feat for many, I am still working on it)

Kellan:  I hope this helps.  These are only my opinions and thoughts
and feelings about some of the questions you posed.  I am still learning
and finding out how very little I know (but I am willing to be taught :-)

My feeling is that as we uncover the veils that are put upon us
in this world (the coverings on the pristine purity of the soul), we
begin to realize how truly multi-dimensional we really are, and that
we are MUCH MORE than just the physical body we thought we were.

Kathy
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From: [e-mail] (Donald Yett)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Implants, end of world, etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 91 00:59:59 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Orrok) writes:
>[e-mail] (Donald Yett) writes:
>...
>> and the BCCI trial!  The government abounds with conspiracy!  Why do you think
>> the Swiss Banking system is still anonymous (How many American politicians hav
>> accounts there I wonder)?  How would you explain such a thing as alien beings
>
>I heard on the radio a few months ago that the Swiss were going to
>de-secrefy all the accounts so that the War On Rights could find out
>if any illegal drug money was stashed there...
>
>Was this decision reversed?
>

I really didn't follow it, I assume that politicians worldwide urged that the
idea be dropped...  Drug money wasn't the question if it was dropped..  Let's
see now, 460+ people in the house with accounts, 100 people in the senate with
accounts, and many many other people in government with accounts in Switz.,
and So/Central America in numbered accounts...  That's what they call in
Washington DC : "Getting caught with your pants down"...  BCCI ought to be
interesting (provided that we ever get the truth)..
--
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
| [e-mail]  | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed,
|   Just my opinions!     | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (David M. Schiff)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  More on Crop Circles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 91 01:03:35 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Daniel Fischer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David M. Schiff) writes:
>>>>4) This past summer, Japanese researchers cordoned off a field with
>
>Is there a sound reference for this story - or is it an Urban Legend in
>the making? I'm wondering because the magazine SCIENCE in a recent
>circles story quoted a *British* case of a circle forming with all
>the ingredients of the story above: burglar detection equipment,
>circle forming in the night, fog hampering the actual observation
>of its formation. If both stories are correct, there's quite a
>convincing case for real circles.
>

I double checked this information with one of the original presenters
and it seems we're talking about one and the same incident.
It occurred in England but Japanese researchers were present,
along with British ones.
Sorry for the confusion.

She also mentioned that a similar incident happened a year ago, also
in England, but only British researchers were present that time.

When I called I reconfirmed another interesting fact that they had mentioned
but I had never heard before and which could go a long way toward
establishing whether the circles are "real". All of the plants (in the
circles) which were examined were sterile. The seed heads didn't contain
seeds.
   Another important point is that circle plants continue to grow
without exhibiting phototropic effects. In other words, after bending over they
continue to grow along the ground, while fake circle plants will
eventually start growing skyward again.

The "Real vs. Fake" dilemma  seems, in this context, to be easily resolveable.
It will be interesting to see what happens next summer.

Dave.
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From: [e-mail] (Donald Yett)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 91 02:42:43 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kevin D. Quitt) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Karen Millar) writes:
>>[e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:
>>
>>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jacques Guy) writes:

         [Nested quotes concerning Omni article removed]

>
>    This article does nothing to refute evolution.  What it states is
>that some single-celled creatures have the ability to mutate in response
>to a lack of nutrition in their surroundings.

True, it should be obvious, if proper nutrition isn't maintained, cells will
degenerate...

>    The idea actually makes a great deal of sense.  "Hey - there's no food
>out there - I'll starve - maybe if I mix up some of my genes, I can find
>a way to eat something out there (repeat until there's food out there)"

A cell will use itself for food before it looks for it...  If it doesn't die
first...

But then again, that is just layman's common-sense...  I am no expert in the
field of microbiology..

>                96.37% of all statistics are made up.

how true..  Or twisted to fit..  If you try hard enough, a square peg will
fit into a round hole [grabbing sledgehammer]

--
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
| [e-mail]  | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed,
|   Just my opinions!     | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!phad.hsc.usc.edu!dyett
From: [e-mail] (Donald Yett)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: tv show on fox
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 91 03:00:02 GMT
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I think FOX did a decent job without hypeing it too much..

I believe their facts on the number of "discovered" planets (they said 1)
outside the solar system are in error, as I remember the first one being
discovered around alpha pictoris in december of '84...  Plus about four
or five "discoveries" being announced since..  I really didn't follow up
on weather they were verified or shot down in flames (can anybody verify
one way or another, it would be appreciated. better yet, does anybody have
a list (suspected planets, verified planets, and mistakes)?)

Interesting stuff about both roswell, and lazar..  i caught the tail end of
the lazar thread here when i got back from my trip, unfort, i missed the orig
postings..  if anybody has info from/about lazar, i'd be interested..

any other opinions on the show?

--
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
| [e-mail]  | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed,
|   Just my opinions!     | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!mips!pacbell.com!ucsd!ucsbcsl!pear!dt4
From: [e-mail] (Goggin;David;E;;;COMS;Undergraduate;930619;;;8-402525-19906-7;1000)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: the pleiladien transcripts
Summary: what are they?
Message-ID: <dt4.687824237@pear>
Date: 18 Oct 91 22:17:17 GMT
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Hello.

I am new to this group and I am wondering what the pleiladien transcipts are?
is thgis a book?  are they actualy transcripts of something?  are they available on this net?

thanks.

*dt*
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re:  mysterious British deaths
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 91 19:43:54 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Patrick Gosling) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Moss Madden) writes:
>[ defence related scientists mysterious 'suicides' ]
>>One of the suicides was really surreal. The guy tied a noose around his neck,
>>the other end to a tree or something, and drove off at speed
>
>Didn't another commit suicide by jabbing himself in the backside with a
>hypodermic, and then hurling himself off the Severn Bridge while unconscious?
>8-)

I think so.  It reminds me of the claim (near the end of Moore's book) that
Morris Jessup was too drunk at the time of his death to have driven his car
out to the park where he was found asphyxiated.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Billy Meier
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 91 20:08:26 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael McNulty) writes:
>
>Is Meier still alive?    The tape often referred to his failing health and
>also to the assassination attempts (according to him, 7, at last count).

I haven't heard any reports of his death, so I assume he's still alive.  (I
haven't been paying much attention to the case.)

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  what is CEOTTK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 91 21:41:09 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Daniel Delvalle) writes:
>
>   As I remember, CEOTTK....is from Dr. Alan J.Heniks system of cataloging
>ufos for entry into his Computer for examineing UFO data.

J. Allen Hynek.

>   D.D.      ......Daylight Disks, or any disks seen at a distance.
>
>   N.L.      ......Nocturnal Lights...seen , of course at night.
>
>   CE I      ... Close Encounters ..Seen close up, but No trace of
>it.(Something like D.D , I guess but much closer to the observer.)
>
>   CE II     .... Close Encounter Second Kind, Seen close up and Leaves
>evidence, such as holes in the ground, burn marks, broken tree branches and
>such.
>
>   CE III    ..... Close encounter Third Kind, Close observation, and
>Contact with any occupants of craft. ( Keyword is Contact.)

I'm not certain if contact is essential to this category or not.  I know
it's not in Vallee's system (see below.)

>  Dr. Henik was the 1st to coin these phrases..(BTW, He did a cameo
>apperance in the Movie CE3K, he was there when the obsevers where on top of
>the mountain...(Glasses, gray beard.)
>   After or about the time of his death, another classification was
>coined...CEIVK Or Close Encounter of the 4th kind....this reffers to an
>Alien Abduction, and examination...usually without the abductees knowlage.

>  If you don't know about this last phenonema, please read the book
>"Incedint at Copley Woods", by Bud Hopkins. (New York). makes for Very
>intresting reading.(I might be a bit off on the title of the book. perhaps
>it was the Copley Woods affair?, but the author was definetly Bud Hopkins,
>of NY.)

"Intruders -- The Incredible Visitations at Copley Woods", unless there's a
second similar book.  (I know Hopkins wrote an earlier book, "Missing
Time".)

> BTW, the LATE Dr.H. died sometime in the late 80's.

'85 or '86, I think.  I know it was during the writing of "Night Seige --
The Hudson Valley UFO Sightings".


VALLEE'S CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM:
------------------------------

Jacques Vallee has expanded Hynek's system by one category in each
dimension, and rearranged it a bit.

The four types of phenomena in Vallee's system are ANomalies, Fly-Bys,
MAneuvers, and Close Encounters.  The five divisions of Close Encounters
(though all four types of phenomena can be divided) are:

    CE1: sighting of a craft at close range, or on the ground

    CE2: landing traces, debris, or electromagnetic effects

    CE3: sighting of a humanoid entity

    CE4: "reality transformation" -- any interaction with the phenomenon,
     except in cases of lasting effects

    CE5: lasting effects from an encounter, such as burns, scars, death, or
     permanent healing

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   what is CEOTTK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 91 21:53:44 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Daniel Delvalle) writes:
>>
>>   CE III    ..... Close encounter Third Kind, Close observation, and
>>Contact with any occupants of craft. ( Keyword is Contact.)
>
>I'm not certain if contact is essential to this category or not.  I know
>it's not in Vallee's system (see below.)

I've thought about it, and I think contact was the definition.  I'm not
100% sure, but I think I've heard that Hynek excluded *repeated* contact
from category 3.

I definitely prefer Vallee's system to Hynek's.  The phenomenon is much
more diverse than saucers and little grey men.    (I'm not trying to bash
Hynek, it's just that he seems to be "nuts-and-bolts" oriented, while
Vallee seems to be more "holographic universe" oriented -- which allows for
psychic/occult/religious phenomena, which can also leave physical traces.
Unfortunately at our present level of technology they don't make a big
impression on most of the scientific community, and there's no way to study
them scientifically other than recording and classifying their existence.)

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!olivea!amdahl!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal,alt.censorship
Subject: Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
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I have been inundated with an incredible amount of information in a short period
of time and have this compulsion to share it with you.  Rather than go into long
detailed explanations, I will simply throw out fragments of information that
I have been given.  [brackets are my personal notations]

In my recent conversations with Wendelle Stevens (the premier UFO investigator
in the world) I asked him what, in his opinion, was the most important UFO
case currently going on right now.  He said the sightings in Puerto Rico.  Here
is a brief synopsis:  A man (who wishes to remain anonymous) was driving down a
road in the fog and, in order to see where he was going, was following a gully.
Suddenly, a [typical] grey alien jumped on the hood of his car.  He lost
consciousness.  When he awakened, he was inside a large garage of some sort with
many automobiles scattered all around.  He saw two grey aliens.  Again, he lost
consciousness.  When awakened next, he was in a room with 10 other Puerto Rican
people and several grey aliens.  A well-dressed Puerto Rican man entered and
began by telling the people that they each had a special mission to perform and
elaborated what that mission was to each of them.  The typical response was
similar to: "Oh no!  I can't do that.  I don`t have the money." or "I don't have
the knowledge to do such a thing".  He lost consciousness again.  Over a period
of time, he was taken on board several craft during which time he managed to take
crystal clear photographs of not only the exterior of the craft, but the
interior as well.  Jorge Martin, a Puerto Rican UFO investigator [who will be at
the Dec.  Vegas International UFO Congress and who showed some of these photos
at the Tucson International UFO Congress-- He made everyone turn off their video
cameras and insisted on no photos during the presentation] followed the story
with this man until just after he was found beaten almost to death, at the side
of a road, by United States` Secret Government agents.  [This seems to be a
departure from established Secret Government procedures.  This is sloppy.  This
would indicate to me that things have gotten so far out of control that they are
unable to deploy the necessary resources to contain the events as they unfold.]
The man has gone into hiding after his encounter [with these dark forces].
There are hundreds of civilian witnesses to the fact that several United States
Air Force F-14 jets were ``swallowed up'' by extraterrestrial spacecraft.  The
pilots have never been accounted for.  In addition, there is a mountain, El Yonke
[sp??], where somewhere between several hundred and several thousand people have
seen scores of extraterrestrial spacecraft come and go from.  It seems to be
common news in Puerto Rico.  Has anyone else heard of this?  Is anyone from
Puerto Rico that is not a disinformation officer willing to comment on all this?

I met with three people that have been investigating and studying the crop
circles for many years: Richard Andrews, Busty Taylor and Leonie Star.  If you
have studied the crop circles, you will recognize the names.  The issue of the
hoaxers was dealt with swiftly.  The hoaxers are hoaxers and nothing more.
They had nothing to do with the creation of the crop circles.  [There is wide
speculation as to why they lied, but after they were proven to be liars, why
is it that the U.S. media, which quickly reported it as a hoax, did not retract
their statments, or even do their homework, when it was proven that these
guys were lying?]  The way in which they count the images has changed.  In the
past [1990 and before], each item in a pattern was counted separately.  Thus, if
there was one large circle surrounded by four smaller ones, it would be counted
as five.  Therefore, there were about 1,000 last year.  This year, for the first
time, one pattern is counted as one, and not as five in the example.  Based upon
this new way of counting, there were somewhere between 250 and 300 this year in
Great Britain.  They have 16 ways in which to analyze the validity of a crop
circle.  They are keeping this to themselves so that liars such as the infamous
D & D will not be able to so easily pull a fast one again.  Two brief stories:
Some investigators surrounded a field with Viet Nam style trip wire, radar,
infrared detectors, motion detectors, infrared film, video cameras, sound
detection equipment and many people.  That night, fog descended on the field.
Nothing set off any equipment.  When the fog lifted about 5 or 6 am, there was
a pictogram.  The Prime Minister lives in a place called Checkers [sp??] which is
surrounded for a radius of 1/4 mile with all kinds of high tech detection
equipment to prevent terrorists, etc.  Pictograms have appeared this year
inside this zone and without setting off any detection equipment [except for
equipment that Her Majesty's Secret Government may have to detect UFOs].  The
meaning and source of the makers of the pictograms was discussed.  We expect that
they will become more complex next year.  In addition, the local MUFON
representative indicated that there were crop circles in Pleasonton and Modesto,
California [this last appeared within the past 2 weeks -- real or not real?].

I have a friend that just returned from visiting with Billy Meier in Switzerland.
No, he is not in hiding.  Yes, he claims he is in contact with the Pleiadeans.
Ptah, more specifically.  Basically, he doesn't like most people.  He does not
like the Jews since he has discovered their true origins [and who YHVH really
was] and since they tried to kill him.  He doesn't like Americans because he
claims he was lied to and ripped off by them as well as having the U.S. Secret
Government try to kill  him.  [He has had at least 17 attempts on his life that
I know of].  Why, do you ask, that if Mossad wanted to murder him, is he still
alive?  Well, apparently, Billy has a higher power protecting him.  The
Christians have also tried killing him.  So, anyway, my own personal opinion is
that the contacts in the mid '70's are valid, but I think that Billy has flipped
out over time due to the incredible experience of it all.

I reviewed some of Gordon-Micheal Scallion's predictions for between now and the
year 1997.  We are in for one hell of a ride!  He correctly predicted the Loma
Prieta earthquake [2 year anniversary on the 19th].  In June he indicated that
the next series of earthquakes at 5.0-6.0 would be in Eureka.  Last month [Sept]
there were several in that range off the coast at Eureka.  He indicates that
the next series will be in the Bakersfield area on the order of 5.0 +/-.  Within
24 months of the Eureka quakes, California, as we know it, will begin to break up.
It will come to be known as the ``Isles of California''.  The area to the east
of the Hayward fault from Eureka to Bakersfield will be inundated.  San Francisco
north will be like an island.  This will be the first of three major changes for
California.  There is much more, but why say anything until we see how things
go.  Oh yea, New York and Japan will go bye-bye.

Information from Fyfe, Alabama indicates that the 100+ year series of UFO
interactions with people in that small town continue.  The consensus is that
the good greys are following the evolution of earth human families over many,
many generations.  I understand that there is a man that publishes a newspaper
there with current stories about what is happening.  Anybody know how I can
contact this person/paper?

In one of my ongoing investigations, a man, through hypnosis, indicated that
the greys are taking cellular tissue from inside the abdomen every several
years to make a determination as to how the earth human cells age, so that
when the greys complete their cross-breeding program, they will have a
mix-n-match humanoid with longer life.  I wonder if, after they figure out how
to stop or slow the aging process, if they will share it will us earthlings that
have a propensity of dying at such an early age of 80 or 90?

Well, I've got lots more and I could go on but ...  Yes, yes, I know, some of you
thank God that I'm stopping, others are on the edge of their seats wanting
more.  I try to answer all of my email, but it's tough when I get 60 to 80
pieces of email a day.  It's pretty well evenly divided between those that wish
I would go away and those that hear the ring of truth in my words and HAVE to
have more.  My purpose is to stimulate POSITIVE discussion.  I do not have time
for disinformation freaks or flame throwers.  I am interested in corresponding
with anyone that can shed light on any of the above.  Oh, yeah, I never said
that computers would take over the world, they already have.  :-)

By the way, did I mention that I have another friend that just spent the afternoon
with John Lear 2 days ago?  Well, maybe more on that later.

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!jeko
From: [e-mail] (James Offutt)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Coincidences?
Summary: It's all over now...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 91 13:07:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Academic Computing and Network Services, Evanston, Il.
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>My WordPerfect Spellchecker does not recognise Illinois, but it suggests aliens
>as an alternative.      <{8^(   .
>
>A.S.MILGATE

    Damn, to think we'd have our cover blown by Wordperfect Corp!

James
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!sgraziano
From: [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Coincidences?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 91 02:45:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 6

ummm...because there are 3 consanants (sp?) that sound alike?
il = al, i = i, nois = ens.


Steven Graziano
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 91 18:37:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 29
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
>I reviewed some of Gordon-Micheal Scallion's predictions for between
>now and the year 1997.  We are in for one hell of a ride!

I'll say... :)

>Within 24 months of the Eureka quakes, California, as we know it, will
>begin to break up.  It will come to be known as the ``Isles of
>California''.  The area to the east of the Hayward fault from Eureka
>to Bakersfield will be inundated.  San Francisco north will be like an
>island.  This will be the first of three major changes for California.
>Oh yea, New York and Japan will go bye-bye.

So, we have Japan, New York, and California falling beneath the sea
like Atlantis did long ago. I find it interesting that you mention
these three areas. Is anyone out there familiar with the magazine
'Master of Life' by Dick Sutphen? He sells a *fiction* newage book on
tape in it called _Pisces Rising_ which tells about a spiritual
commune called Autonomy. The leader predicts the fall of Japan, New
York, and finally California, in that order, and by the end of the
story (very entertaining, I highly recommend it) the first two have
already bit it. Perhaps Dick, the authour, looked at Scallion's
predictions to get his inspiration and ideas?

>There is much more, but why say anything until we see how things go.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\ Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen \ [e-mail] \  /  \  /  \  /
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!emory!ducvax.auburn.edu!eng.auburn.edu!sroberts
From: [e-mail] (Scott T Roberts)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal,alt.censorship
Subject: Bo Yin Ra---Who is He?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 91 20:31:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2534 alt.conspiracy:8229 misc.headlines:18611 talk.religion.newage:7330 alt.paranormal:3425 alt.censorship:3876
Nntp-Posting-Host: lab6.eng.auburn.edu

I ran across a book in the library called "[The?] Book on [the?] Life
Beyond" by Bo Yin Ra. I'm not into spiritual stuff, but I thought it
was an exceptional book. I've glanced at the new age stuff in the
bookstore, but his stuff seems to be much more enjoyable.
He seems to be a mixture of western and eastern traditions, but
he stands on his own ground. The book was written in simple language
and was kind of short. It had a lot to say.

I believe that he was a German that wrote sometime around the 1920's.
(It was translated.) It was donated to the library by a "foundation"
that is located in some place like Switzerland. It was a paperback
with a plain blue cover and white lettering.

Please let me know if you have seen this book or others by him. I'm
wondering how many people know of him and how many University libraries
have recieved donations. Any other information would also be appreciated.

Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!yang.earlham.edu!julianm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling and UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 91 15:48:04 GMT
Lines: 79

Kathy <Redheaded Goddess @ Organization for the Titian-Haired Beauties>

Yo!

I've been hoping, and I hope not against hope, for a reply to my "Kathy
and UFOs".  I hope you don't mind that I changed the subject
line...there's something so unoriginal about a newsgroups
filled with nothing but "Re: Xxxxx Xxxxx" which happens all the time.  So
if your uncharacteristic silence was prompted by my arbitrary change in
subject name...

Here we go again with telepathic communication.  Here is, as always, what
I don't get.  We are to believe that these superior, or at least subtler,
more evolved spiritually beings exist out there, and are trying to
communicate with those of us who show the open mind and open heart to
receive (and potentially interpret a hundred different ways).  Right?

Well, I can dig that.  I can see how some might be more developed
spiritually, just like I have friends who are great at balancing chemistry
equations but can't "read" literature.

But there seem to be some incongruities in what you're saying.  First of
all, for such highly developed creatures, why *wouldn't* they "...waste
their time..."?  Hmmm.  If this is true, then for such highly evolved
spiritual animals, they don't seem to deal with time too well.  My
personal conception is that Cosmic Beings would not have to worry about
that sort of thing.

And about skepticism.  Why is this so bad?  It is precisely humankind's
sense of skepticism that has kept it for centuries from trundling off to New
York to buy that bridge.  It is a healthy skepticism that keeps people
like you and me from buying used, low-mileage Yugos.  Or Yugos, period,
for that matter.  And it is skepticism on someone's part that I know that
causes her to write that newspaper drivel "...is definitely lower
consciousness activity."

Here's another juicy one.  In your p.s. to Kellan Hatch you write to Mary
Stanley, saying "'Some people's egos (sufi term is nafs) just get a thrill
out of argument/debate.  With these types of people you never win anything...'"
Well, for a woman who claims to abstain from argument and debate, you sure
do seem to think in those terms.  I mean, "win"?  The purpose of debate
and argument is to enlighten, not to "win".

Of all the people I've read, you are the most emphatic in your alleged
refusal to "engage with the mind on these matters", as you wrote to me.
And yet you probably post more into this newsgroup than anyone else, and
always you are on the defensive, using intellectual *debate* and arguing
with your *mind*  against other people who are simply asking you
questions.  You contend things and then say, "...but don't ask me to
explain/prove this to you..."  How did you suddenly become exempt from the
rules of discussion and argument--not intellectual fighting, but *argument*?
What makes you so special?  What makes you so special, that you can dust off
every honest question with something simple, something easy, like "You either
know it in your heart or you don't"?

Now, about this thing of yours with aliens, missile systems, technology
and spiritually unevolved Earth-bound bad guys...I don't buy it.  Look:
I'm an alien, in contact with people on Earth.  Why are all the
dictators/power hungry slimeballs such a threat to me if I'm so exalted?
If I were a spiritually evolved alien, I'd simply invite/contact those who
were spritually evolved, had open minds and hearts and the like.
Meanwhile, the dangerous people on this planet, who don't have a high
level of consciousness, who don't have open minds and open hearts, would
be automatically excluded.  Right?

Looking forward to hearing from you...

Julian/Felix
Send out the dogs!

    - Julian T-Cell (Lymphocyte) MC Superfly Cheez-Whiz Marsano
      ECMLVDC
    - Light Terminal Operator

        -== Earlham College MoonLight VAX Driving Corps ==-
         "Bad craziness, fast terminals, and nothing better to do."



Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!pacbell!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: mysterious British deaths
Keywords: MAJIC
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 91 00:01:18 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 56
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2536 alt.conspiracy:8230
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

[e-mail] at the University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA writes:

> What is MJ-12/Alternative 3  ?

Graham Toal responds:

> Alternative 3 was a UK TV spoof-documentary about the US & USSR co-operating
>       ...
> a deliberate leak.  Baloney.

Before you believe anything that Mr. Toal says, I recommend that you read the
book: ``Alternative 3'' by Leslie Watkins and David Ambrose, printed in Great
Britian by Sphere Books Ltd 1978, 27 Wrights Lane, London W8 5TZ and decide
for yourself.  I quote from the jacket: "Research for what was originally
intended as a straightforward TV documentary on the scientific 'Brain Drain'
from Britian revealed some extremely disturbing things:
o Many people joining the Brain Drain are vanishing off the face of the Earth--
  literally.
o The super-powers have been working secretly together in space for decades.
o Astronauts' reports of strange things they saw on the Moon have been
  suppressed.
o Life on Earth is doomed.
o The super-power governments have a plan to preserve a tiny nucleus of human
  survivors.
And this was just the tip of the iceberg.  Behind these and many more sinister
features lurks the top secret operation known as ALTERNATIVE 3, an international
government conspiracy so monstrous that the human mind can scarcely grasp its
true enormity."

and, Mr. Toal continues:

> MJ12 was a document apparently signed by Truman about contact between the
> US Govt and the aliens.  It has been proven to be a forgery.  Again, the
    ...

This is not true.  It has NOT been proven to be a forgery.  It is more than
a document.  It was a series of documents BY the MAJIC 12 (whose head is,
by default, always the head of Central Intelligence).  Again, here is
someone that has not done their homework.  My recommendation is that anyone
interested in this subject review the facts and make up their own mind.  I
suggest that you read "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12" by Stanton T.
Freidman, Nuclear Physicist-Lecturer, 79 Pembroke Crescent, Fredericton, NB
Canada E3B 2V1.  He was given $16,000 by the Fund for UFO Research to find the
validity of these documents.  I have spoken with Stanton many times in this
regards.  His report is extremely detailed.  I quote from his summary: "It
appears that these MJ-12 documents are the most important documents ever
leaked to the public and should be the focus of a great deal of investigative
attention on the part of the journalistic, scientific, religious, political,
and economic communities."  Remember, the famous debunker that lost $1,000 bet
on this subject with Stanton?

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 91 22:53:53 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 42

Julian/Felix writes about how skepticism is good, etc.

About your asking me "why wouldn't they waste their time?"....etc.

Well, have you ever tried to talk with/share/discuss something with
someone who had their wall up?  It has something I think to do
with spiritual law: there must be openness, genuiness, yes, even
a respect/honoring.  Have you never heard of various spiritual
masters/yogis who simply would not 'waste their time' on certain
individuals (because they already KNEW of the futility of even
conversing with such people).  Some people have an attitude: prove
it to me or forget it.

I don't think it works this way, Julian/Felix (btw, what type of
name is that, Julian/Felix?  Are you two people over there?)

Attitude has a lot to do with many things, and spiritual growth
is somehow connected to attitude and person's pure intent on
seeking truth (I believe the higher beings are not only 'out there'
they are also 'in there, also')--meaning IN YOU.  But you have to
do your own seeking and your own searching.

You can be as skeptical as you wish...if it is your path, then go
for it.  But don't expect your experiences to be quite the same as
someone who is ready to know and understand that he doesn't
have all things figured out, etc.

That is all I can say.  I can only speak from my own experiences.
When I say you can't win with someone, it doesn't mean not winning
an 'argument'...it means, being able to touch their heart or making
a connection on a spiritual level.

When people create blocks, it is their own job to remove/dissolve them.
If they expect others to do this work for them, they may have a long
time waiting for them to be removed.

Your skepticism sounds more based on being skeptical of any one who
doesn't happen to think/feel the way you do.  Too bad.  This world
is comprised of many beings, and many are worth talking with and
learning from.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!yale.edu!cmcl2!prism.poly.edu!szhu
From: [e-mail] (Shu Bin Zhu)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Redheaded Goddess
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 91 03:56:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Shu Bin Zhu)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Polytechnic University, New York
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>
>Each person must find his own truth.  No one, and I do mean NO ONE
>will bring you your answers or arguments on a silver platter, Julian.
>When you have your own direct experiences, you will realize how
>impossible it is to even *try* to convince another of what you have
>either experienced or have *realized*.  It is all individual.

Hi Kathy:
 I agree with your statement above.  Infact I see little need in convincing
 others when one is believing in him/herself.

 Just for curiosity, what kind company are you posting your message from?
 Is Redheaded Goddess the name of the company?

 P.S.  Is everyone out there using VI for editing their message?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!cmcl2!panix!gcf
From: [e-mail] (Gordon Fitch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 91 01:26:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: mydog in exile
Lines: 14
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2539 alt.conspiracy:8232 misc.headlines:18616 talk.religion.newage:7339 alt.paranormal:3431 alt.censorship:3888

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
| So, we have Japan, New York, and California falling beneath the sea
| like Atlantis did long ago.

Why do they always have California falling into the sea?  I've
been watching it for a number of years now and it hasn't done a
god-damned thing, except sit there and get dusty.  You would
think if it were going to fall into the sea, it would have made
some kind of a move in that direction by now.

To hell with California.  I want to see a prediction where Iowa
falls into the sea.
--
* Gordon Fitch | [e-mail] | uunet!cmcl2.nyu.edu!panix!mydog!gcf *
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!cmcl2!prism.poly.edu!szhu
From: [e-mail] (Shu Bin Zhu)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Summary: worlds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 91 04:36:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Shu Bin Zhu)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Polytechnic University, New York
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>
>This world and its' consciousness needs to be lifted up.  And that
>will happen as EACH person individually works on changing and purifying
>himself.  Not on arguments with one another about are aliens really
>out there or not?  I think they are not only "out" there, they are
>also "in" there too.
>
>Think about it.

I don't know if I can think, but If I remember correctly (from reading) that this world is the same as other worlds.  (The total seems like seven worlds.)
As the consciousness of this world rises, someother world's lowers.  And then all the worlds became non-being.  And after non-being, there are seven worlds again.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Gulf Breeze And Cia/dod Plots
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 91 14:16:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 25


 > I have to admit that I haven't heard of any way the video could've been
 > faked.  There's been a lot of discussion about how the photographs
 > could've
 > been faked, though.

I heard a very interesting theory from a qualified opponent of the Gulf Breeze
photos.  The theory is that someone in the distance was holding the model on a
large stick, broom handle, etc., while Ed made the video from behind the bush.
According to this person, who has viewed the entire video, the street lamp
which is in the school yard, blinks out at the precise moment that the UFO
passes over it, indicating a support structure holding the UFO up.  The
problem with the video is that we never get to see enough of it on the
television programs that show this occurrance.

As for the red lights, I am not convinced that this even qualifies for a UFO
since what I have seen could be a conventional aircraft such as a helicopter
hovering in the distance and playing games with the lights.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Negative ETs; Evil Helpers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 91 16:39:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 49

For awhile I have been pondering over the idea/fact (?)
of negative ETs, the cover up, etc. and I came across
this paragraph from the book "Mastery Through Accomplishment"
by Hazrat Inayat Khan about evil helpers, etc.  It seemed to
answer a lot that was going on in my mind.  I share it now
with/for those who are interested in the invisible realms,
who believe in telepathy and/or suspect that they themselves
may be in telepathic communication with other intelligences/
beings, etc.:

"To what extent one should expect external help can be best
explained by the fact that to the extent of our wish an our will-power
we attract help and power of accomplishment.  In our desire for
the accomplishment of good and helpful things we attract good
helpers, and in the evil things one desires one attracts evil
helpers.  The Stanic side of life is every ready to help man, as
is God.  As soon as a person has a determined evil thought all
the means of help about one begin to manifest themselves.  The help in
good thoughts comes more slowly upon the physical plane, wherease
with a bad thing it comes more quickly.  Pebbles, like the line of
least resistance, are found everywhere, but diamonds are so
rare!  Evil motives and deeds take much less time to accomplish
their purpose and less trouble, while good things are accomplished
with great pateince and perseverance.  And the difference can only
be realizedin their results."

---
Note:  Hazrat Inayat Khan founded the sufi order of the west
many years ago.  I feel he was/is a God-realized being.  He died
in his 40's, and his son, Pir Vilayat Khan is now the head of this
order.  Franklin Merrell-Wolff, in his book Pathways Through to Space
listed the following as God-Realized Men:  Jacob Boehme, Spinoza,
Whitman, Hegel, Rama Tirtha, and Inayat Khan.  About Real Knowledge,
Merrel-Wolff says this:  "In contrast to formal and empirical
knowledge, Real Knowledge is essentially wordless, for It does
not deal with objects.  This is Knowledge through Identity.  Hence,
It does not *represent* Substance, but *is* Substance Itself.

For those who have written in to this newsgroup, you might wish to
read some of the writings of Hazrat Inayat Khan, especially what
he has to say about the heart, the surface of mind, etc.

If any one is interested further in Franklin Merrel-Wolff, there is
a tape of an interview that New Dimensions has out of Richard Moss,
M.D. who spoke of his direct energy experiences with merrel-Wolff.
I highly recommend this tape as a possible tool to expand one's
relating to the fields of energy and openness.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hpda!hpcupna!hprdash!hprpcd!rpfand
From: [e-mail] (Richard Pfand)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 91 16:26:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: HP Roseville Site
Lines: 9

We are descended from reptiles!! A long time ago native american indians
spoke of white men with forked tongues. This must be something similar to
a snake's tongue. For those of you that are not familiar with snakes, they
are cylindrical like animals that slither around and are considered reptiles.
I think that as early as the PREWESTERNOIC era we did have reptilian traits.
This shows also that evolution occurs as we speak.


Richard Pfand
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 07:49:15 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 31
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2544 sci.skeptic:16602


     In answer to some question that were submitted to me I hereby submit the
following answers;   The spacecraft that came over Palmdale, Calif was quite a
bit bigger than a Stealth Bomber  and a lot of people saw it.  That, pretty
funny about  Pink Floyd and the flying pigs.  People from Venus do spread a
lot of love.  The lady from Venus couldn t fix her TV because she was just as
smart as a normal woman with no electronics training. Who knows maybe this
person with the high temp. may have been from another planet is a previous
life.
   Now for today s posting.
    There is a space scientist by the name of Soltec who found  that when
space people come to the Earth their people within two years, start to act
combative, hard to get along with and generally start acting like people and
animals here on Earth.  They also found that if a space person is sent back to
another planet they start acting normally within a few days.  Even if a person
from Earth is taken to another planet her or she starts acting OK.
    When they checked the radiation coming from our sun it was found  that
lambda radiation wasn t being filtered out by our covering around the Earth.
This was corrected in l970 and it will take 60 years to get over this. The
Earth has been accumulating this radiation in our soil and other things for
millions of years.  By the turn of the century it should be much better
although we may have to go though some rough times coming out of our present
cycle until 2030.

Don is posting this through his account for me .  I am not Don . Don is not
me. John.





Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the pleiladien transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 08:09:31 GMT
References: <dt4.687824237@pear>
Distribution: alt
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 21

Gee, I thought you would never ask. :-)  The Pleiadians are a group of entities
who are being channeled through a lady named Barbra. Marciniak.  They have
been coming through for over three years. Their talks are available on cassette
tapes (over 100).  A friend of mine took the time to transcribe two evenings
that the Pleiadians gave last year at Stanford Univ. called the Harmonics of
Frequency response and the Human DNA. I got ahold of a copy and scanned it into
my computer. It is six files of about 30,000 bytes each and a seventh file that
includes a list of tapes.  I have been sending the transcripts to those that
request them by email. Over 120 net folks have asked for and received the
transcripts by email.  BTW that should be enough to start our own group.
Although seriously I am considering starting a Family of Light list where
we could share all this great stuff without the dimly lit dumping on it.
Anyway the offer is still open.  Send me your email request and I will
email you the transcripts.  Don Showen, Light Head
Oh, BTW I am also very into Billie Meier, I have two of the contact notes books
scanned into the computer with permission from Wendelle Stevens to post stuff
from the books, I have been pleading with this group for two years to ask about
stuff I could quote from the contact notes, with no takers.  Hmmm. Maybe I will
just start posting my favorite conversations between Billie and Samjese. How
about the trip they took all over the universe?
Don Showen
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Orvotron Newsletter SeptemberOctober part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 91 23:16:10 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 459
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2546 talk.religion.newage:7348





----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your perusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------



----- Orvotron Newsletter September\October part 1 ------------------------



        Bimonthly Newsletter, September\October, 1991
        Orvotron, Rt. 2, Box 309B, Vilas, NC  28692  [phone]



             Greetings Ascending Light Beings.   In the last three  news-
        letters  we have been telling you about many  changes  which  are
        effecting  Earth and her inhabitants.  We have talked  about  how
        the balancing energy is rising to create Heaven on Earth while at
        the same time the inharmonious forces are increasing their influ-
        ence.   Quite a fray is being created by the continued denial  of
        and resistance to accepting the Love of Father in the Divine Plan
        as  Earth's new direction.  On one hand there are  many  Ascended
        Masters,  Angels and Light Beings of every nature  on  assignment
        here with us.  In opposition to this are the dark forces who have
        brought  in their own Masters of Deceit to try to keep the  Illu-
        sion alive as they resist Earth's ascension into the fifth dimen-
        sion.   Their plan is to continue to censor events, thus  keeping
        the masses in confusion and fearful of change.  This has  brought
        about much misunderstanding as to who is who as each talks  about
        the other's position in what's taking place here on Earth.

             Mother Earth  is also more frustrated and is now cringing in
        the  final mounting assault that is effecting the planet and  all
        life on it.  The result of this dispute is that there are now two
        Wheels  of  Life operating at the same time on  Earth.   One,  is
        vibrating at a faster rate activated by the Throne energies  that
        will take Earth into her next existence.  The other is resonating
        at  a  lower and slower rate.  In times past,  Earth's  Wheel  of
        Life, which is the living example of the Divine Plan, was altered
        in order to confuse, control and keep the people in ignorance  as
        to  how  things really worked.  The result of this  is  that  the
        original  Wheel  which is now severely damaged cannot  renew  its
        life  force  and is dying.  In the final hour  the  eternal  life
        force  will separate these two worlds into different  dimensional
        frequencies.

             These two  Wheels of  Life are functioning simultaneously to
        assure that the universal law regarding freedom of choice remains
        available.  For those who can see through the Illusion  and  care
        about  changing and becoming a part of the ascension process  the
        Wheel  which is vibrating in the Divine Plan is  available.  They
        will  benefit  from  working in balance and  harmony  to  produce
        abundance through responsible stewardship, thus remaining  within
        the higher vibration of the Creator.  Those who refuse to  recog-
        nize  the  changes and remain fixed will become  victims  through
        their continued support of the forces which are making it  impos-
        sible for life to exist on Earth.  The deceivers have created  an
        imbalance  that will trap many in their decaying Wheel  of  Life.
        This  sad  state has progressed until the old Wheel  of  Life  is
        beyond recognition and now is in a cycle of death that will  lead
        to extinction for the many foolish people who follow the  errone-
        ous ways of those creating this situation.







             Many are caught in this dispute  and are bonded to the Illu-
        sion  through  fear of change.  A system based  upon  deceit  has
        produced  a controlled society with a narrow consciousness  which
        will  never allow the truth to emerge.  Many have  forgotten  the
        truth  and  are unable to remember this world ever being  one  of
        love,  abundance and freedom.  The proof that this was  the  case
        however lies in little recognized archeological digs which tell a
        story  about Earth and her people five to six thousand years  ago
        when  things were different.  While some are caught in this  tan-
        gled web, others are choosing to see and accept the truth as more
        of  the veils of Illusion are swept aside making the  real  facts
        and the correct path to follow obvious.

             The  "Eternal Wheel of Life"  is now  firmly  rooted in this
        world "guarded" and "protected" because  it is unalterable in its
        eternalness within the Divine Plan.  As the two forces of  energy
        continue  to rise in opposition to each other the experiences  of
        worldwide  unrest  and internal conflict  effecting  the  planet,
        countries  and individuals will increase.  This was foreseen  and
        is  the result  when stubborn denial resists seeing on  one  hand
        and  therefore disregards responsibility on the other.  The  pat-
        tern  is  then  one which continues to support  the  very  things
        creating all the wrongs which are presently destroying Earth.

             The ever rising  Throne energies  are bringing in the neces-
        sary  harmonic frequencies for the final changes which will  take
        Earth and her awake inhabitants back into the long forgotten love
        vibration,  thus setting the stage for a healthy balanced  exist-
        ence.   When  this occurs two distinctly  different  worlds  will
        exist created through the sea of change in the ascension process.
        One  will  be opposite in polarity to the other and will  be  the
        shadow world which will remain in the third dimension to exist in
        the newly formed fringe universes.  These expansion cycles create
        a  shell around the Mansion World's reality in the "donut" as  it
        continues  to expand into eternal darkness.  Your  thoughts,  ac-
        tions, and deeds will bond you to one or the other world.

             It is the task  of  those  here  as  seeds  of the ascension
        consciousness  to actively help others to see through and  beyond
        the  Illusion,  the  cycled trap of  ignorance.   Many  that  are
        trapped  by  the deception in these cycles have come  to  believe
        that the repeated experiences are the reality.  If we don't  help
        them  they will continue not to see and will resist  all  changes
        that  are now releasing those who are awakening from the  bonding
        effect  of  the  Illusion.  By not doing anything  we  will  have
        allowed the Illusion to continue to push this group mind into yet
        another  very  long cycle of negative  experience.   Perhaps  the
        biblical saying, "The meek shall inherit the Earth" applies here.
        Those who are weak in spirit and do not have the courage to  make
        correct change will inherit a planet lacking in love and individ-
        ual sovereignty; the shadow world of the illuminated Earth.

             The  line  of  separation  in the final event  can  only  be
        forged  by doers through their higher understanding and  willing-
        ness  to create correct thoughts and deeds based on love.   Posi-






        tive actions must now replace words.  Each of us is in a position
        to help create the final design as part of the awakened group and
        in so doing become the examples of the way.  Without actual doers
        here  on Earth we cannot  create the necessary things which  will
        open  the  doors for correct change to result.  Two  group  minds
        exist and in order to achieve any harmonious split their  respec-
        tive  units  of magnetic energy must be balanced  as  closely  as
        possible.   A  massive, coordinated effort to awaken all  to  the
        choice  at hand is imperative.  The line is now being drawn  that
        will separate those who wish the opportunity to ascend with Earth
        from those who choose to remain in the world of Illusion.

             If we remain passive,  idle,  inactive  Starseed on Earth we
        will  become stagnated and unable to do what we came here to  do.
        Each  individual involved in the awakening process must now  find
        the strength to overcome the Illusion in order to do what we came
        here to do.  We are the forces of love, the real means to  create
        change here.  It won't happen by wishing it so, then refusing  to
        take  an active part due to some harbored fear.  It is  time  for
        full activation.  "Action" is now the force that must increase in
        frequency.   Inactivity within our ranks will  create  separation
        likened  unto  the wheat being separated from the  chaff.   Those
        Starseed who choose to sit by idly may become souls attached  and
        bonded  to what we came to change.  At some point each  individu-
        al's  choice  will  place him or her in one camp  or  the  other.
        "God  helps  those who help themselves" and in doing so  we  will
        receive  everything  necessary for our mission of  love  to  help
        others to see the Illusion versus the Creator's Reality.

             All those who remain  sitting on the fence  refusing to make
        the  choice  to be involved will soon see where that  puts  them!
        Passive  acceptance  has supported all the horrors we  have  been
        witnessing  here  on Earth.  These horrors are  now  directed  at
        those  who have consistently stood by thinking they are  in  some
        way safe, therefore untouchable and immune.  There is no place to
        hide or run.  The only realistic choice is to change Earth from a
        place of fear into a world of love.  This is the only true escape
        from the Illusion.  Nothing is coming to take you home or  rescue
        you from what you agreed to experience and then change.  Changing
        it is the only way HOME!!!  Once this is understood then the only
        course left is to do it.  WON'T YOU JOIN US?

             The deceivers want us to believe we are safe in our  closets
        until  their  trap is sprung and snapped shut.  This  is  a  very
        serious statement made as the Illusion and deception increases to
        create  changes in secrecy behind our backs.  We must not  become
        frightened  and  dysfunctional as we awaken to the truth  of  the
        situation here on Earth.  Instead, as emissaries of love, we must
        allow  the  truth to be our impetus to do our parts to  create  a
        world  of love.  It was never intended that we would lock  up  in
        fear by being exposed to the horrors on Earth, but rather, it was
        planned  that as we realized the great need here we would  create
        the way out for all those trapped in pain, suffering and fear.


             Some  Starseed  who focus on the  "negativity" in our  news-






        letters, are refusing to accept any responsibility for the  nega-
        tivity of this world or to take any form of action to change  it.
        This attitude makes them responsible for it whether they want  to
        accept  that  responsibility or not because they agreed  to  come
        here to help bring light to the darkness.  To know the truth of a
        situation  and  then accept responsibility for it puts one  in  a
        position  of wanting to create correct change.  This is the  path
        we must each accept in order for positive change to occur on this
        planet.  By refusing to get involved we allow things to get  much
        worse  until eventually the horrors we thought would never  touch
        us are on our doorsteps.  Already this has crept nearer than most
        realize, see or accept.  It is so near some will soon  experience
        it rather than the false security of their safe illusion.

             We could step back, not interfere and allow these nonpartic-
        ipating people and their pat little lives to radically be  turned
        up  side  down.  Many in the councils feel this is what  it  will
        take for inactive Starseed to see the reality.

             However, there  is  another  way!!!   It  is  the way of the
        warrior,  one  who stands up to support all things  necessary  to
        create  change  regardless of the danger involved.   By  being  a
        warrior,  by being actively involved where ever you are, you  can
        be a part of the creation of HEAVEN ON EARTH.  This may mean that
        you will stand out as the "black sheep" in a herd that  otherwise
        looks and sounds alike, but that in itself has its rewards.  Many
        who are associated with the Mission are under some form of attack
        but their resolve is to remain firm and unmovable in their  serv-
        ice.  Knowing they have made the correct choice, by facing  their
        fears,  they are aligned with the Holy of the Holy and  have  the
        protection and guidance necessary to complete their tasks.

             Here at HQ  we are  often awed by the support which is given
        by  a few to help the many and simultaneously frustrated  by  the
        number of folks who receive our newsletter but make no effort  to
        contact  us to find out how they can be more involved or  let  us
        know what they are doing.  How can we network them, activate them
        or  give  them the support of our combined organization  when  we
        know nothing about them or their efforts?  The same old  scenario
        is  still replaying itself; that is, the few loyal  and  faithful
        are carrying the load of the majority of a group that came to  do
        whatever is necessary.   This has to stop!!  Very soon many  will
        experience  the changes so dreaded.  When this occurs it will  be
        too  late  to change sides from viewers to doers  in  the  actual
        event of creating Heaven on Earth.

             The  above statement regarding warriors  will no  doubt  re-
        ceive a negative reaction from the pacifists, but I would like to
        remind  you  that even angels are warriors.  Weren't  there  con-
        flicts  between  the legions of Archangel Michael  and  those  of
        Lucifer??   Well what do you think it will take to right all  the
        wrongs  here on Earth?   Can we really sit idly by if we know  we
        came with a mission of Love to help release all the trapped souls
        who want our help?  I think not.  Turning our backs only prolongs
        all  the  suffering for those not yet aware.  This  also  creates
        even more work for those who are currently carrying the load  for






        the  Starseed  who are not yet fully functional in  the  Mission.
        Those who are currently attempting to do their own jobs plus  the
        work  of those sitting on the fence are growing tired and  cannot
        do  so indefinitely.  The negative aspects are real and  must  be
        met and dealt with by the Legions of Light in whatever fashion is
        necessary to get the job done.

             Archangel Michael  has  designated Earth as his headquarters
        when the expansion of our combined system of universes pushes the
        next  shell  out into the darkness.  Irregardless of  this  fact,
        there continues to be a firm stand against a peaceful  resolution
        by  any of the "negative" factions involved in the  struggle  for
        this piece of real estate.  Earth is their stronghold in a rebel-
        lion  which is taking place in the negative energy  zones.   They
        have  stated  they will not leave Earth alone or  back  off  from
        their  desire for total domination.  They continue to  refuse  to
        accept  the changes necessary for this world to return to one  of
        light  and love.  If they would agree to a harmonious return  the
        Father's  influence would instantly occur.  Given this  state  of
        affairs,  it means that Earth is the main event left in the  com-
        pletion  of the harmonizing of the fringe universes as it is  the
        last stronghold of resistance to the cleansing which is occurring
        elsewhere and is about to occur here.

             This information  may give you a clue as to your agreed upon
        part  in the Mission to create Heaven on Earth and the  necessity
        for us to be warriors.  Does it really look like the balancing of
        negative and positive can be put into harmony in any peaceful way
        here  on  Earth?  In reality every type of warring  faction  (I'm
        referring  to  the Grays, the Dracos and yes,  even  the  corrupt
        governments of Earth) is already here or is coming as it  appears
        Earth is the place of choice in the last battle between the Light
        and the Darkness.

             Make no mistake,  harmony  will be restored  in  the  fringe
        universes.   On  the  ships the councils of  the  Hierarchy  have
        determined  that  no peaceful solution can or will occur  in  the
        time  left  before the natural cleansing of the fringe  universes
        takes  place.   Their position has been stated  to  the  factions
        already in control and to the others that appear to want  control
        of  Earth.  They have told the Grays, the Dracos and  others  in-
        volved  that their forceful intervention in Earth's affairs  will
        result in the Legions of Light going to war to stop any  takeover
        of Earth.

             Since the 1940's the Hierarchy has been offering its help to
        all governments but the price of disarming and teaching  uncondi-
        tional  love  to the people apparently is beyond  what  those  in
        power  can  accept or live with.  Societies based  on  the  false
        belief that power lies in weaponry have now been confronted  with
        the  fact  that their weapons are nothing against  those  of  the
        Grays and Dracos.  They are out gunned in weapons and in technol-
        ogy yet they still refuse help from the Hierarchy.
             This  may  sound  a  little  confusing.   Why  doesn't   the
        Hierarchy  intervene  before things get really ugly  if  the  end
        result  will  be a cleansing and ascension anyway?   Or,  on  the






        other hand, why would the governments of the world refuse help if
        they  know they are vincible?  The answers lie in  the  universal
        Law  of Nonintervention of evolving worlds.  As long  as  nuclear
        weapons  are not used as a means to further destroy Earth  (which
        would  also create imbalance in the rest of the  universes)  then
        the people of Earth are free to deal with their internal problems
        without outside intervention unless the Hierarchy is asked to  do
        so.

             In this case,  however,  the Law of Nonintervention is being
        broken by forces from outside of Earth which brings the Hierarchy
        into  the picture.  The Legions are at WAR, not with any  country
        or  government on the planet, but with those who have broken  the
        nonintervention policy.  However, until the people of all nations
        take responsibility for Earth's condition and predicament and ask
        for  our help the "good guys"  hands are tied.  This, dear  ones,
        is  the  reason extraterrestrials are being kept  secret  by  the
        governments  because they fear loosing control of the  people  by
        acknowledging the existence of ET's, "good" or "bad".

             The irony  of it  is that all life on Earth has extraterres-
        trial  roots  from the Tree of Life which seeded this  planet  in
        many different stages of its development, both in the ancient and
        recent  past.  Many within the Light Ranks are the same ones  who
        seeded  life here and left with a promise to return.  Many  high,
        old  souls  are present here at this time to help.  By  doing  so
        they  have  accepted Earth's karma and also  the  end  experience
        connected  to  it.  Their awareness keeps them striving  for  the
        best solution for all concerned in the many scenarios now effect-
        ing  Earth.  However, without the awakened support of the  larger
        group  in service here, there can't be any easy, quick  fix  out-
        comes.  The ones incarnate here have the ball by having  accepted
        responsibility when they entered.

             The  hour  is drawing close  when forced extremes may create
        a less beneficial end result in terms of the numbers of souls who
        will be adversely effected.   That is why it is so important that
        the truth be told so that more people can understand and make the
        correct  choices.   Unfortunately, truth is a rare  commodity  on
        this  planet  and the Legions of Light are also effected  by  the
        deceit and lies of those who would discredit them.  This  reminds
        me  of  a saying an old woman we know and love used to  say.   It
        goes  like this and now makes perfect sense to us, "You can  hide
        from a thief, but not from a liar".

             In  the  higher existence  beyond  evolutionary  schools  of
        experience there is a sincere respect for all life and the Divine
        Plan.  Life in the lower planes eventually evolves as a new addi-
        tion to this much larger family where existence is more beautiful
        than  one can imagine.  It is a place which awaits those  willing
        to  enter,  who will respect it and keep it like it is.   It  was
        found  that the very best way for souls to gain this respect  was
        through schooling in a free will choice situation where one could
        physically  manifest anything he wished to experience  regardless
        of how negative or positive it was.  Eventually all souls tire of
        these  experiences and finally reach the realization  and  under-






        standing  of  the Divine Plan.  These schools  prepare  souls  to
        exercise  their free will choice in an appropriate  manner,  thus
        gaining  the  right to enter into Mansion  World  Reality.   Each
        school planet has in it the Divine Plan; it is nature, the  Wheel
        of Life, perfect in balance and renewal.

             Some   school  worlds  were tampered with and thus lost  the
        chance  to  understand the Divine Plan.  Earth is one  of  these.
        Each time a seeding was done the necessary knowledge was left and
        a healthy wheel was put in place to prevent possible  extinction,
        along with directives to guide  people back to the Source.  These
        truths, however have been consistently hidden or destroyed by the
        few who want to control of the many.  This negative  intervention
        created  a negative energy that drew like to like, which has  now
        attracted  yet another like-minded group who are moving  to  take
        Earth  over.  The "innocent" are those who are not yet  aware  of
        this situation or the options that are available to them.  Howev-
        er, little by little the truth is surfacing because the deception
        has  become so vast and so threatening to all life on the  planet
        that it is now more difficult to hide.

             The deception  is now  buried  under so much deceit that the
        deceivers  are  also ignorant of the truth.   By  supporting  the
        altered Wheel of Life one's existence (in veiled sight) is  based
        on  an illusionary system that was created by lies in  the  first
        place.  That illusionary system will eventually cave into  itself
        and leave a void without a foundation to start over.  The  result
        is hopelessness and the possible extinction of the human race.

             At this late date only those souls who wish to help  restore
        truth  (there  is a risk of loosing some) are  being  allowed  to
        incarnate.   Our combined mission is to open as many as  possible
        to the correct use of the new Wheel of Life which will carry them
        out of this dead end situation.  A purging of the deceivers  must
        occur  as  their  desire is to never make things  right  and  the
        people  must  now  take back their power.  The  people  must  now
        accept  full  responsibility  by bringing  correct  changes  into
        existence.  The Legions of Light from above can then help in  the
        restoration  if  asked.  If this scenario  doesn't  unfold  soon,
        Earth will be cleansed to the point of being devoid of all  life.
        Restoration  of life will then occur through reseeding after  the
        Divine Plan is back in effect.

             Two hundred years ago a hybridization program was instigated
        in the event that all else failed.  The specie of human  selected
        for this effort were those who still possess within their DNA the
        seed  of the sons and daughters of God, the Adam  Cadmon.   These
        were  chosen  as the most likely to develop with  love  as  their
        basic  motivator in order to steward the planet and all its  var-
        ious life forms.  These hybrids are being safely kept out of  the
        fray which is happening on Earth at this time.  We might add here
        that  the  Starseeds took this on as part of their  task.   These
        children are important and this cannot be understated.  They  are
        the future.

------ Continued in Orvotron Newsletter September\October part 2 ----------

Don


--
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Orvotron Newsletter MarchApril part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 91 23:09:13 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your perusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------


---- Orvotron Newsletter March\April part 1 -----------------------------



                              Bimonthly Newsletter
                             East Coast Power Point
                            Transformational Updates
                                March\April, 1991

             Greetings Ascending Star People.  It appears our plans for
        the Mission, the creation of Heaven on Earth, has reached a new
        height of retaliation and resistance from the forces in rebellion
        against the Divine Plan and the Father's Will in this matter.  It
        was our hope that such matters would mutate in a natural sequence
        as renewal elevates and then cleanses Earth into its next cycled,
        evolutionary step into Mansion World Reality.  This would have
        been in the natural order of all systems as they are uplifted
        into the higher resonance energies of our Father in the constant
        cleansing process, however there is a great resistance to this
        taking place on Earth.

             In  making  this  statement about resistance  it  should  be
        understood that this is not a new aspect of right versus wrong in
        decisions  which effect Earth, the well-being of its  people  and
        all life on the planet.  The reality of the situation is that for
        a very long time knowledge, technologies and the Divine Aspect of
        their  use  have  been hidden from and not freely  given  to  the
        masses  in  order to bring to this world a  clean,  abundant  and
        vibrant  society that would spawn a healthy Wheel of  Life.   The
        gallant beings given the responsibility to bridge this  ignorance
        have been confronted by great resistance from the few who control
        the many as they tried to bring out this information.  The result
        in the use of less beneficial technologies rather than  reusable,
        abundant resources is that people no longer understand the Divine
        Plan or the Wheel of Life.

             So rampant has this been carried out on a global scale  that
        few,  if  any,  alternative means are now  available  to  satisfy
        Earth's  constant  growing energy needs to sustain  life  in  the
        future.   Instead the few have kept many ignorant of this  knowl-
        edge  and these technologies in a great deception  propagated  to
        further  control people.  Most attempts to share  this  knowledge
        have  been met with ridicule, nonsupport or the  discrediting  of
        the  individuals given this information.  Verification  of  these
        attempts can be found on SPIRIT Bulletin Board under New Technol-
        ogies and in the Science section.  We have provided this informa-
        tion to further awaken those who don't believe other means  exist
        when,  in  actuality, they have been available  for  hundreds  of
        years in some instances.  Those in power continue to choose other
        directions and suppress information that each of you should know.
        The  reason  for this is to keep you ignorant,  thus  maintaining
        your dependence on their control.  However, this situation is now
        being reversed.

             The source of this knowledge has never ceased.  It is avail-
        able  to those who "listen", hear Spirit and have the  desire  to
        further  the causes of Freedom, Abundance and Love.   Within  the
        masses there are many who allow others to tell them what is  good
        for  them and  by doing so they cannot see a  different  reality.
        Remaining  dependent  on  those who derive  their  power  through






        propagating  dependence  will  not right the  many  problems  now
        effecting  Earth.   Those  who are more aware  are  beginning  to
        understand  that  this deception must stop  before  solutions  to
        Earth's eroding Wheel of Life can be put in place.  This continu-
        ous  decline  of the Wheel of Life is bringing us closer  to  its
        collapse and the eventual extinction of life as we now know it on
        planet Earth.

              The  war  in the mid-east is another of these  great  decep-
        tions.  It is a front to further the plans to control all people,
        all  systems of government and the energy sources upon which  the
        masses are dependent.  Controlling information has been the  main
        means used to keep everyone in the dark but this has now begun to
        erode as new ways around censorship are being made available.  In
        an  effort to inform and uplift consciousness the Blue-Green  Ray
        of Truth is being projected to the planet.  It is hoped that  the
        rising tide of nervous reaction to the deeds of those in  control
        will create additional attempts to rectify wrongs, both past  and
        present, as more awaken and see more clearly.

                       ( What Happened to the Red Alert? )

             In previous newsletters we told of Red Alerts, War  Councils
        on  the ships, meetings and discussions of new events  on  Earth.
        Plans and directives to many had to be changed or scrapped as new
        situations made Earth the staging area for the last stand of  the
        remaining rebellious destroyers of life.  The reason for this was
        that  Earth became the last major strong hold and refuge for  the
        forces who refuse to honor Peace, Love and Harmony in the  Divine
        Plan.  These forces would destroy creation rather than allow  any
        part  in their control to "evolve" into the coming Mansion  World
        Reality.   They  understand that if this  evolution  takes  place
        their  power will be neutralized and become ineffective as  their
        dark energy can not exist in the higher resonance of the  Mansion
        World Reality and still control people and life on Earth.

             Ashtar  said that a nuclear war in the mid-east would  bring
        the Forces of Light out of the Fifth Dimension.  Preparedness for
        this  possibility had taken place.  Since that communique it  has
        been learned that very large ships disguised as asteroids are  on
        a  course toward Earth.  At the last minute the Dark Forces  have
        fled from areas of the universe which are already in cleansing or
        from those now back in harmony.  This fact was a new twist  which
        meant other plans had to be formulated.  It now has been  decided
        to allow these ships to enter Earth's atmosphere and in so  doing
        the  Armageddon referred to in the Bible will in all  probability
        take place.  The final stand against the Forces of Darkness,  the
        destroyers of life, will now take place on Earth.

             These  events  may drag on and seem long  overdue  to  those
        caught in between in this dilemma.  The few controlling the  many
        are now in jeopardy and will soon see the folly of their ways  as
        they  realize their mistakes.  The end result for these  will  be
        that  the Reptilians (Dracos) will eventually overtake those  who
        believe  they have control.  These times will invoke great  pain,
        hardship and suffering, then swiftly from the north, the sky will






        open  and the mighty hand of  our Father Creator will descend  to
        eradicate all negativity and darkness on the planet.

             The Forces of Light are assembling and focusing their atten-
        tion on our little planet in preparedness and to watch this  take
        place.  Our fleet has grown to one and a half million ships  with
        many  more coming at a quick pace.  When the wrath of our  Father
        descends to Earth it will be as if the sky has opened and a great
        deluge of fire balls of eternal light descends in a force  beyond
        any imaginable magnitude ever witnessed before on Earth.

             When  this  takes place the survival of those in  the  Light
        will  depend upon their holding fast to Light and Love and  their
        release of all negativity and fear.  Negativity and fear will  be
        quickly  disintegrated  by the cleansing energy and  never  again
        exist in this part of the Father's Creation.  So great will  this
        force  be that the Heavens themselves will seem to  open,  rumble
        and rock  causing every imaginable natural and unnatural event to
        occur.   It  will be as if every molecule of Earth is  shaken  as
        this  force penetrates to Earth's very core allowing  nothing  of
        negativity to escape or withstand it.

              Some  Light Workers have received information that  we  can
        enter  the Inner Earth when surface conditions threaten our  sur-
        vival.   The  King of the Inner Earth has stated  that  sanctuary
        will be given to all Light Workers who are here as ascended hosts
        from the confederation of planets and from the source  universes.
        Inner guidance has been telling many to change their locations to
        areas  where the secret entrances to the Inner Earth  are  avail-
        able.    Unfortunately  few are heeding these  directives.   Your
        safety  cannot be guaranteed if these directives continue  to  be
        ignored.

             Until  the time to leave arrives all are directed  to  carry
        the  Torch of Love as hosts of the Divine Presence.  Each of  you
        must stand as pillars of Divine Light and Love never faltering in
        your  love  of the Creator and all life.  By so  doing  you  will
        greatly  assist  and help others to bypass much  of  the  purging
        effects.  This will help to protect the innocent near you who are
        caught in this last stand between Negativity and the ETERNAL LOVE
        OF OUR FATHER'S ETERNAL LIGHT.

             Many would like to know when this will occur but even  those
        above or below in the Inner Earth do not know the exact time, nor
        will any know until just before the final hour arrives and  "then
        swift  will be the hand of God".  The decision for this  to  take
        place  has been made because those in control continue to  reject
        or  work toward a world of Peace, Love and respect of the  Divine
        Plan.  In the meantime those getting directives to gather togeth-
        er  to  weather this great storm have very little  time  left  to
        organize and create the means to do this.  We have been told that
        this  time is not far off.  Those not following their  directives
        will miss the opportunity to reach safety as these entrances  are
        not  easily found and their locations are a closely  guarded  se-
        cret.  We may be given only a few hours to get to these entrances
        and  then be ferried deep into the Earth to the havens of  safety






        and from there evacuation off Earth will occur.

             The  time I am referring to will come just before, not  dur-
        ing,  the great cleansing and those staying will then  return  to
        the  surface  only after the forces of negativity  and  fear  are
        eliminated.   Until  then things will appear stable  because  the
        deception is very well organized and will continue to take  place
        in unnoticeable ways.  Many will realize the trap they are in too
        late.

             Those  getting  through to the next stage  after  the  great
        cleansing  will be assembled in groups created to put  forth  the
        necessary  effort  to rebuild.  The world at that stage  will  be
        greatly underpopulated compared to the numbers on it now and only
        the  strongest in mind, body, soul and spirit will be the  survi-
        vors  that  remained on the surface.  It was  hoped  that  loving
        thoughts and actions would bring a large number of people  beyond
        ignorance  and into the Golden Age.  Unfortunately the deceit  of
        the  dark  ones  has ensnared many into being  followers  of  the
        Illusion  thus placing them in a situation where there is  little
        chance  of survival.  The truth, which is now hidden under  these
        great  deceptions, is controlled or censored in every way  possi-
        ble.  When the truth is finally unveiled deceit will have already
        done  its  dirty  job of rendering many helpless  and  left  with
        little hope.

             Even  as we speak great armies are being built in  poor  na-
        tions  from dirty money and other acts of deceit by  the  Illumi-
        nate.  These forces are being created for use against any  possi-
        ble  rebellion in the world when economies and governments  begin
        to  fall and the new plan is revealed.  When the leaders of  this
        surface many will see for the first time their ignorance and  the
        depth  of this great deception.  Then the few who tried  to  warn
        the  rest will be listened to, but by then it will be  too  late.
        The real damage will already be done and only the Father's inter-
        vention  will be able to right things.  Many will pray  for  this
        intervention  before it actually takes place and many  will  even
        blame God for their own ignorance as they lack the inner strength
        to accept responsibility for allowing this to happen.  These will
        still refuse to see that giving away their power created much  of
        the  situation.   The Light Workers will have entered  the  Inner
        Earth by then with the faithful in tow, and those wishing it will
        board the ships.

             By being witness to these transgressions against life on the
        planet many will see the folly of this last stand of the destroy-
        ers  against  the Divine Presence, our Father.   Those  surviving
        this  experience will be instilled with the desire to never  want
        to  experience  it ever again.  Only then will  they  accept  the
        Divine  presence  of Love which has been absent for  so  long  on
        Earth.  These events will bring absolute change and the Creator's
        Law  of  One  will then become the basis for all to  live  by  on
        Earth.

             Many are beginning to "see" and gain a deeper  understanding
        now  as Earth's veil is being lifted and the energy of  ascension






        comes  in.  But even this must be helped along.  You  must  offer
        enlightenment  to those trying to catch up while the  last  ditch
        attempt  by those in control is closing the gap.  By  doing  this
        the Forces of Darkness may prematurely hasten to instigate  their
        plans  thereby  tipping off many who have not  yet  realized  the
        situation.   So  great are their plans to enslave  and  rule  the
        world  that little time remains for the people to head this  off.
        Those already seeing the situation feel that the hour is late for
        any  great  resistance to have an effect even  though  the  Light
        Workers  will  still spread the Light until just before  the  Fa-
        ther's Spirit renews Earth.  Those now serving can effect  little
        change unless they are joined by others who also accept responsi-
        bility through their personal directives and actively  contribute
        their  part  in the creation of Heaven on  Earth.   THESE  HEARTY
        SOULS  NEED YOUR HELP.  They cannot do it alone.  Do  you  under-
        stand?

              ( We Are Here To Make Known That There Is A Choice )

             In all creation there are endings and beginnings.  No matter
        what takes place the Divine Presence will create a clean,  bright
        new  beginning from the destruction.  We had hoped to carry  many
        into  the Golden Age which soon will be the Reality.  None of  us
        helping to usher in the New have any more than our Divine Essence
        to impart.  We cannot impose but instead must approach the situa-
        tion in a way which does not violate another's freedom of choice.
        Our  main objective is to bring to others the understanding  that
        each  of us have Divine Roots with the Divine Presence.  Our  job
        after  that is to open all to a fuller understanding  of  Mansion
        World  Reality.   Each must know that a choice to accept Love  as
        the way is the key to entering into the Golden Age.

             Making the decision of Love is the only way to be a part  of
        Heaven  as  it is created on Earth.  Some will say there  is  not
        going  to  be a Rapture or the Divine Presence coming  forth.   I
        will tell you there is a God, there are those in service to  that
        Divine  Essence and many of these hosts are present on  Earth  to
        assist  and  to guide those willing to enter  this  new  reality.
        Love is all supreme and it will carry many over into the heavenly
        realms.

             The  Fifth  Dimension is coming to Earth.  Make  no  mistake
        about  this  fact.   Fear and negativity will  be   detected  and
        eradicated  to  fall as decaying matter on the  Earth's  surface.
        The  doomed  will cry doom, but follow them not!   Their  way  is
        deeply  rooted  in fear and causes their inability to  trust  the
        Divine Presence Over All Else.  The Father's Source Energies   do
        exist  and it is the wonder of wonders in which to  bath  spirit,
        soul and your material body.  This goes beyond words of  descrip-
        tion.   From Time Eternal the Divine Presence has  renewed  crea-
        tion, and it always will.  Soon this will take place on Earth and
        you  are now seeding this as sparks of that essence through  your
        thoughts and actions.  We, as servants of the Divine Source,  are
        here to prepare the faithful and those who wish to understand.

             Do  not  doubt the words of Sananda (Jesus  Christ).   Where






        Love does not exist pain and suffering will take its place.   All
        of  you  have seen or know the suffering of being in a  world  of
        greed,  deceit,  fear, and hate.  Now we must prepare  Earth  for
        Heaven's descent.

                ( Is There A Reason for Experiencing Damnation )

             Can it be that your experience in this fallen situation  has
        a  higher,  more meaningful purpose?  Then what  could  that  be?
        Could it be that it was necessary to experience pain and  suffer-
        ing  in  order to appreciate the new system based on  Love  which
        will  rise  from the ashes of all discordant  energy  as  renewal
        brings Heaven to Earth?

             I ask then, who of you would turn your back thus  prolonging
        misery by not accepting Love?  The answer is only those who  want
        to  control  your  eternal souls.  Heaven  is  divinely  designed
        beyond their abilities to create or exist in.  Their best idea of
        paradise falls way short of anything like your real home, Mansion
        World Reality.  Only therein lie the roots of your origins,  your
        much bigger family.  You need only want Love as your reality  and
        it  will  appear and direct you through what is  ahead.   "Misery
        loves company" is the other way, what they would have you follow.
        Do not fall for this as it is of no worth.  Do you understand?

                  ( The Eternal Spark and The Dark Rebellion )

             Each  of us is endowed in a special way.  Each of you are  a
        seed of the Divine Presence.  In you is the Spark of Spirit.  All
        of us were created to represent that Spark, to be stewards and to
        create  correct  change.  Do not give over your divinity  to  the
        opposite force that destroys creation rather than nurturing it to
        the  finest  reality  it can become - one expressed  in  joy  and
        happiness based in Love.  Fear can have no place in your  hearts,
        Light Beings.  Reject it and give it no power.

             Eternal  life in this Love is the gift that those in  rebel-
        lion  have  lost.  Their desire is to get you to loose  hope  and
        wallow  in  the situation they have created.  Will you  fall  for
        that by becoming crippled with fear thus the victim of it?   This
        grows  worse on a daily basis and soon the real plot will  appear
        and  engulf many.  You will soon be controlled by foreign  armies
        built from the profit of dark activities.  The one world  govern-
        ment that is now about to make its appearance will dictate  their
        plan  and say America is no more.  Proof of this is soon to  come
        and many are already aware of it.  Know, however,  that in the
        end  the Councils of Light will be the governing force,  not  the
        Dark Forces who now falsely believe the hour is theirs.

             Some  of you have acknowledged your inner guidance up  to  a
        point but when it came to doing your part in the Divine Plan  you
        then  became  dysfunctional.  The Plan however, is not  lost  and
        will  prevail in its Divine Essence as supreme and all  powerful.
        Your dysfunctional behavior has placed you in the same  situation
        as the many  held in ignorance - to experience these changes.  It
        was  hoped that those of you who have lost your way would at  the






        last minute see reality and avoid the trap.  Some of you are  not
        as strong as others and guidance tells me to remind you that  you
        are not forsaken.  You are experiencing your choice and this will
        create an absolute record in the Universal Mind so that others in
        a similar, future situation will never again follow anything even
        similar so blindly.  So be it.  You have done your best.  Feel no
        guilt in being weak.  Everything has a purpose.

             Few  will  support and few will organize any  resistance  to
        what's  coming.   We must remain unafraid to speak  of  Love  and
        Truth.  Remember, we are in bodies but our bodies are not us.  We
        are spirits like our maker.  Thus, we are eternal beings who  are
        here  to  help others find that Love reality and  then,  if  they
        wish,  these may go home to meet their bigger family.  We  appear
        for  a time in different places and in other realities where  our
        help is needed.  We are, in reality, from the same place as Jesus
        where much exists beyond present understanding here.  There  Love
        is  eternal  and  radiates in full expression of  itself  in  and
        through all living things.

             The  people  of  the United States are not  alone  in  these
        events  taking place.  Other countries and even other worlds  are
        also  effected.  Many are more aware of the situation and  others
        are less aware.  Censorship is prevalent everywhere.  But  under-
        stand,  in  every  way possible truth is being put  out  to  you.
        These truths are also being tampered with by the forces that wish
        to control and enslave, but know there will come a time when they
        will  face  the Father's wrath and that time is  now  near.   The
        waiting, the prolonged duration for this to take place, is due to
        a forgiving God who is giving every chance for repentance  before
        his mighty hand descends from the Heavens.  God is coming for his
        faithful.   Should fear be a part of your Love of God?  Many  say
        yes,  but fear not, as Love Only bonds to Love.  Rejoice  in  his
        coming; release all fear.

                           ( Where Will It All End? )

             Many  falsely believe that to enter Heaven you must die  and
        leave  the  body behind.  In truth you need only  ask  that  your
        wholeness be raised to the frequency of Heaven to enter complete-
        ly  as you are here on Earth.  The only difference is  that  your
        energy  will accelerate and vibrate at a much  higher  frequency.
        Even  without your physical body you still exist and  immediately
        upon  entering  another dimension or world a body  will  form  to
        encase your soul and spirit.  In actuality you have many  bodies.
        Your  focus is on the one you're in now and this is why  you  are
        more  aware of it rather than the rest that represent  the  total
        composite of what makes you "you" - a multidimensional being.
             There will come a time when you will be aware of the reality
        of  the  infinite,  the eternal.  Once you reach  this  point  in
        understanding you will know there is only experience, the actual-
        ity  of the many different forms of aspect reality of  which  you
        are a part.  The things you focus your attention on here are only
        illusions  in one of these aspect realities.  Granted  things  do
        seem  "real" because if they did not you could not  sustain  your
        focus on this reality to bond you to it and keep you in it.







             Thought creates everything in all of creation including what
        you  believe is reality.  The end of our being here is  the  last
        chapter  of  our combined thoughts as we manifest our  desire  to
        experience  something else.  Since thought creates for many  this
        means that negative thinking is creating negative realities which
        must be experienced.  My main commander intent is to refocus your
        thoughts  back to Light and Love to prevent all unnecessary  out-
        comes  of  a negative nature.  Let's not get drawn into  all  the
        negative things now circulating.  God is not dead because if that
        were  true  you in that image would not exist either.   Focus  on
        Love  and  Love will replace negativity on the planet  then  that
        will  become your next experience while being here in this  great
        time of change.  Do you understand?

             Our  job  here is to create Heaven on Earth.   In  order  to
        achieve that we must, above all else, present ourselves in  total
        love, forgiveness and compassion for all life.  If we loose track
        of our true identity during this progressive awakening then great
        things  cannot  and will not be the result.  We  must  focus  and
        direct  our attention on giving, sharing and Love if we  wish  to
        manifest Heaven on Earth.  President Kennedy said, "It's not what
        your  country can do for you, but what you can do for your  coun-
        try."  That statement also represents what we are to do in ALL of
        creation.   We are divine aspects, caretakers of God's Will,  and
        that is our reason for being created - to carry out his Will, the
        Divine Plan and also why we are here.

---- Continued in Orvotron Newsletter March\April part 2 -----------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Orvotron Newsletter MarchApril part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 91 23:10:19 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 462
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2548 talk.religion.newage:7350




----- Orvotron Newsletter March\April part 2 -----------------------------



                      ( Fear and Money, Are They Real? )

             We can't create Heaven on Earth by replacing love with  fear
        or by using money as the absolute way to make this work.  If your
        actions are motivated by money and driven by fear then the result
        is  fear manifested creation and this is out of the Divine  Plan.
        If  money  is sought as the main aspect to your  well-being  then
        many are in for a surprise because money is worthless.  Its power
        lies  in  the combined mind giving it power.  If you  think  not,
        then  when  it becomes worthless (which is  coming  quickly)  try
        eating it or covering yourself with it to keep warm.

             Look  to  where things come from, not to  what  others  have
        created  here to get these things.  The reality now on  Earth  is
        that some of you are dependent upon everything being provided for
        you instead of what really is.  If you think this statement isn't
        true  then  make a list of your own about what money  gives  you.
        Then  make another list of what you can provide for  yourself  in
        relation  to  your needs without it.  This should  show  you  the
        folly of the illusion of well-being based solely on money.   Does
        money make the sky blue or the trees grow or the sun shine?  Then
        why kill Earth and life here over something which was created  as
        a means of exchange that grew to great importance, is  destroying
        everything,  but soon won't exist.  When it's gone what will  you
        have left to give all your attention to?  What about your  sover-
        eignty  -  living  on your own abilities  without  dependence  on
        outside goods and services?  Granted, as long as money exists  we
        will  need  to use it as the agreed upon exchange,  but  are  you






        prepared for the time when it does not work?

                             ( Where is Our Focus?)

             All  of us must focus very intently on Love  never  allowing
        negativity  to creep into our hearts.  If we loose focus on  Love
        then  we are playing a game and become aspects not linked to  our
        true Spirit, our true Image, our reason for service.  In  loosing
        sight of who you are, you are essentially allowing your true self
        to  be polluted with much lower, discordant energies.  This  cor-
        rupts  our  group  energy which is in units  of  magnetic  energy
        squared.   Divided  we  will fall.  If we stay  together  we  can
        create  our  part of Heaven on Earth.  The Father will  usher  in
        what we have not accomplished.  Do you understand?

             Once  divided we become neutralized and ineffective  in  our
        specific  part of the creation of Heaven on Earth.  If all of  us
        understand  this and stay focused in true Light  everything  will
        transpire as we originally planned in our Mission of Love.   When
        I said plans had been changed I did not mean this was intended to
        inflict a lower energy of our presence.  These changes  represent
        new  things  that were not originally in the script.   These  re-
        quired  some new directives to be issued, deviating to  a  degree
        but not changing the original plan.  Don't give up the ship.  All
        is not lost and our Love force is and always will be all supreme.

                            ( Is This A Soap Opera? )

             From  the HQ viewpoint the Mission is beginning to look  and
        sound  like a soap opera.  Many of you are over dramatizing  what
        is  actually taking place.  In doing so you are sending waves  of
        confusion  and fear out to everyone you influence even  in  small
        ways.   This is unnecessary and at times does create mass  shifts
        of energy from areas of real need, plus weakens our group aspect.
        It  is  hoped in bringing this to your attention  that  all  this
        emotional  energy can be redirected to areas of  real  importance
        not  to  rumors  of little worth creating  more  confusion  where
        clarity needs to shine.

            Here at the east coast headquarters information comes in from
        many  different  locations.  It appears that  energy  shifts  are
        easily picked up by many of you but some are allowing their  true
        essence to be manipulated by all sorts of craziness.  One  person
        can  say something and then others jump on it as the truth,  thus
        spreading  it  everywhere whether it's true or  not.   Think  and
        meditate  before  you speak.  Jesus said it matters  little  what
        goes  in your mouth but it does matter what comes out.  Be  care-
        ful, ever mindful of the effect you have on others, especially on
        those who are more vulnerable due to their lack of awareness.

             For  example,  several  people heard that we  were  to  burn
        everything  connected  with the Mission because it  had  changed.
        Well, that sounded crazy to me as what I'm getting isn't anything
        of the sort.  Is your faith in the Father that easily manipulated
        by some rumor?  If so your faith is liken to a plant growing on a
        rock  and  easily dislodged.  Mine is in fertile  ground  holding






        fast  to our Father's presence and plan here.  No Mission of  the
        Creator  could ever be dislodged or changed so easily as some  of
        you  feel has happened or is possible.  It has not, nor  can  any
        force outside of the Divine Presence prevent the Divine Plan from
        taking place.

             Commander Ashtar and many others worry about all of us  down
        here.   Do  you  give them reason not to?   Many  are  constantly
        wavering, doing the opposite of their directives or ignoring  all
        communications.   Why?  Please tell us so we can understand  your
        fixation to half-truths versus directives coming from the  source
        of  Eternal Love, the only reality.  I can't understand why  some
        are  wishing to put the Mission aside when there are so many  who
        are feeling hopelessness and need our help.  They are the  reason
        we  are here in the first place.  A simple directive may  change,
        but our reason, the need for our being here and the Mission  will
        not  change.  The need for our help is great.  Without  us  hope-
        lessness will prevail.  Heaven will be created, but how will  all
        those souls know how to get in without us to tell and show   them
        what  they need to understand.  They have a decision to make  and
        we are here to guide and be an example for them.  How can  anyone
        turn away from such an act of Love?

             In  all  honesty Earth is going to ascend and it's  not  far
        off.   The  number that will rebuild the Golden Age is  small  at
        last  count.  I Am that I Am will have new meaning soon  as  many
        side  with the grim reaper versus the Divine Plan.  I think  what
        all need to do is to reread Sananda's words in the New  Testament
        that  have  meaning which somehow is being lost  out  there.   It
        seems  the human drama is getting the biggest billing and  atten-
        tion now.

                            ( The Pleidian Solution )

             The  Pleidians  have  given reference to a  drama  in  their
        worlds  which  was  similar to what Earth is  now  facing.   They
        corrected  the  situation  by ignoring the  drama  gathering  and
        assembling  in  small groups to celebrate the joy of  life,  thus
        bringing their worlds out of negativity.  This created a reversal
        of what could have been complete destruction.

             In a similar fashion the Islands of Light are to be examples
        of what life can be versus what many believe it to be now.  These
        are to be places of high energy radiating love, abundance and joy
        in  a  world of fear.  These need to be built  along  with  other
        projects  that will uplift all those who are becoming  despondent
        as  things  speed  up.  Pyramids, schools,  healing  centers  and
        Islands of Light are now, more than ever before, very important.

             Your  support  of all endeavors of this  nature  which  your
        guidance  directs you to is very much needed.  The reason is  the
        situation  is  now within Red Line perimeters that must  hold  no
        matter what happens.  If they do not then the vortexes and  power
        points that will help in the renewal process may be released into
        the  hands  of the opposition forces because of no  support.   If
        this  were  to happen the Grid will not be able  to  support  our






        energy  work which is necessary in blending in the higher  octave
        resonance as  Heaven is created on Earth.

             Support  of  those who are creating these  foundations  must
        come  from individuals and groups.  Many gallant souls serve  our
        Father around the clock preparing the way for others.  This  does
        not  leave them much time to bring in the needed resources to  do
        Spirit's  work  by amassing funds to build  these  things.   Some
        easily  amass the needed resources - you are the  "BANKS".   Your
        purpose and job was to finance these projects but for one  reason
        or  another  this is not being done.  By your confusion  in  your
        purpose  in  having this ability a delay was  created  in  needed
        projects  starting or getting done.  This directly  effects  out-
        comes.  You must wake-up, time is running out.  You know who  you
        are.  You were given a sacred trust and if misuse of these  funds
        continues  many necessary things will not get done.  We  are  not
        here  to recreate the old and to create churchs.  It is  not  too
        late to correct this situation, but time is now close to  running
        out.   You must Wake-Up as much now depends on the  parts  coming
        together correctly.

             Always be Divine Sparks. Ask yourself what can happen to  an
        angel  while  here on Earth?  Do Eternal Spirit Beings  die?   Of
        course  not,  so what is this folly of fear?  It is  nothing  but
        whatever  you  give  to it by following it and  feeding  it  your
        energy.   It becomes a disease which not only brings your  energy
        down  but  also that of those we came here to  help  and  uplift.
        Your words, your thoughts and your actions are the gleaming  hope
        of  the  world.  Beam pure Love as the opposite to  darkness  and
        fear.  Is this too much to ask?

                       ( The Pyramid and Other Projects )

             It  is our fond hope that Spirit's hosts will see  the  need
        for  this  structure on Stone Mountain and that it  will  quickly
        manifest  this spring.  Foundation materials have been  delivered
        but  money for footers and cement is still needed.  Unlike  other
        structures such as the main house and school building which  were
        built here by me and a few others, it may become necessary to pay
        for  the work others do on the pyramid.  This is due to the  fact
        that there is not a long period of time left in which to build if
        it is to be a fully operational device.


             In  addition,  I am personally unable to do as much  of  the
        physical labor as was required of me in the past due to the  many
        new responsibilities I have accepted.  For instance, a brother in
        Michigan has requested our help in editing and publishing a  book
        on  past life regressions and the dolphin language.  We are  very
        excited about this project as there is great potential for it  to
        open  many to higher awareness to say nothing about  learning  to
        communicate  with  Dolphins.  Two cassette tapes to  be  included
        with  the book will focus on this communication.  We  would  like
        help  to complete this project and solicit your participation  in
        bringing this book out.







             There  also  remains the directive to begin this  Island  of
        Light.  Our first step in this endeavor is to secure an addition-
        al one hundred and ten acres available nearby on the vortex point
        which  is above our property.  What this could mean is that  many
        would  then  be able to spend quiet times on  Stone  Mountain  to
        receive  the  high energy here to take back with them,  and  many
        could  gather  together at one time. This property  has  secluded
        meadows,  woods and overlooks where several hundred could  gather
        together at one time in a reunion of Spirit essence who are  here
        to bring Peace and Love once again to Earth.

             Ashtar has told us that by making this vortex more available
        many  would and could receive the energy which is  beneficial  to
        those entering into its influence.  We sit upon this point  know-
        ing  these  things will evolve, not knowing how  the  needed  re-
        sources  will appear but at the same time knowing it  will  come.
        It always has and we know in the Divine Presence it always will.

                       ( SPIRIT, Bulletin Board Service )

             The Bulletin Board was another directive and by our alerting
        you  to this need it has evolved and grows daily in its use.   To
        date we have received calls from as far away as Red Fern, Austra-
        lia  and  folks are downloading information  from  California  to
        Maine.  In one year our emphasis has switched from the east coast
        of  the United States into a world-wide information sharing  ven-
        ture  and this gets more involved on a daily basis.  In the  near
        future  SPIRIT, Bulletin Boards will encircle the world to  bring
        truth,  love  and  hope to many.  More than ever  before  we  now
        understand the purpose and the need this fulfills.

             To those of you who have made this feat possible and contin-
        ue to do so we send our profoundest thanks.  Your hearts are full
        with the Divine Presence we all represent in our being on  Planet
        Earth at this time.  Know that your donations and acts of service
        are  spreading  Love and offering assistance to  those  who  seek
        information of this nature.

             We urge you to merge together in groups or pursue  individu-
        ally  the means to access this information we are  locating  from
        the cosmos, across the country and around the world.  In so doing
        you  will  be  able to read in detail much of what  can  only  be
        alluded  to in a bimonthly publication.  Verification  of  little
        known  but potentially hazardous aspects of the  world's  present
        dilemma  is  available,  alternative energies and  the  means  to
        implement them are revealed and material on ETs, UFOs, the  Rosi-
        crucians  plus  much  more can be easily  accessed  through  this
        bulletin board service.

                     ( Some Personal Messages from Kortron )

             Some of you have informed us of personal directives to  join
        and assist us here at HQ.  These followed their directives to the
        letter,  selling property, etc. and at the last  minute  vanished
        without a word.  We wonder, why?  Please recontact us.







             Downed UFO info is ok but we aren't into recovering them nor
        do we wish to bring these objects here.  Thanks for the offer.

             Some  went  on a shared mission to retrieve  new  technology
        from people they knew.  These same people never got back with us.
        Please  do.  These pursuits should not be left unfinished. If  at
        first  you  failed there is always another way.   Please  do  not
        leave  us  unaware  of the progress as we may be  able  to  offer
        assistance.

             Many  have requested a picture.  We will make one  available
        soon  and also a video of this mountain and HQ.  Our  reason  for
        not  doing  so sooner is the result of a heavy workload,  and  an
        extremely tight budget.
                             Peace and Love, Kortron


                                  ( Sanctuary )

             There are drawbacks to having your private sanctuary on  the
        East Coast Power Point and also house the headquarters for  those
        light workers who are affiliated with it.  Not that there  aren't
        "pluses"  such as putting out and receiving back a lot  of  love,
        meeting and sharing with our family of Light and learning so many
        new  things  each day which has opened my  consciousness  to  new
        possibilities.   But, sometimes I need a break; cabin fever  sets
        in  and  I find myself cringing because the phone is  once  again
        ringing.

             Where  do entities go for vacation, anyway?  I've  lived  in
        these  mountains  almost fifteen years now and they  have  always
        been a tourist attraction regardless of the weather.  Some of the
        entities who visit with us are on vacation and Stone Mountain and
        Kortron  are an interesting stopover.  In effect by  opening  our
        sanctuary  to all who are seeking or have found higher  awareness
        we  have closed the door on our personal privacy.  So let  it  be
        known - we are who we are, living the way we live, regardless  of
        who else is here.

             We  may  temporarily  cease a conversation  with  you  while
        answering the phone or telecommunicating (or both simultaneously)
        but at some point we will get back to the issue at hand.  Kortron
        and  I are more prone to give our undivided attention  to  others
        who  are in our living space than we are to each other  which  at
        times can create a lack of communication between us.  But what we
        are  doing, what you are helping us to create for  humankind,  is
        working.  It is one way in which the Divine Plan is being  imple-
        mented.  A rather big "plus" wouldn't you say?

             As  our efforts in the Mission become more focused  and  the
        responsibilities increase we find we have less time to  entertain
        "just for the fun of it".  As a result it is necessary for us  to
        now  set some policies regarding "visitors" and we hope you  will
        understand  that these measures are meant to keep our portion  of
        the Wheel of Life functioning.







             In  actuality there is no such thing as a visitor here.   If
        visiting is what you have in mind then please make an appointment
        with  us for a few hours to chat.  Otherwise you may find we  are
        too  busy with Mission work or our daily existence activities  to
        meet  with you.  We do have spare bedrooms in an unfinished  por-
        tion  of  the  house which are available to  subscribers  of  our
        newsletter  (if an overnight stay would be more  convenient)  but
        please  consider what the clean sheets, hot shower  and  probable
        meal  might  cost you in a local motel and leave  a  donation  if
        possible.   Some  entities  have been known to  bring  their  own
        towels and linens which is wonderful since ours are growing  thin
        from use and we do not have a dryer.  Food brought for sharing is
        always appreciated.  If you make even a tentative reservation  to
        be  with  us it would be nice to have that affirmed  or  canceled
        rather than for us to set aside time then wait for a "no show".

             As a subscriber you will also be welcome to use our  library
        of  books, videos and audio cassettes, but please, please  return
        what  you borrow.  You can freely hike our property and  much  of
        the mountain, meditate on the power points or relax in some other
        fashion.  However, we can not promise you our constant  attention
        as "living in the flow" brings many unanticipated events our  way
        and we may have to attend to something or someone else.

             If  you would like to stay for more than a day/night  please
        understand  that  in  many ways we are a "work  camp".   You  may
        therefore  be  asked to haul or chop wood to help  keep  yourself
        warm, cook, wash dishes, watch Adel while we are otherwise  occu-
        pied or all of the above.  In the spring, summer and fall much of
        our work is outside in the garden or on construction projects  so
        you  may  be asked to get your hands dirty or pick up  a  hammer.
        Rural  life is very satisfying but it is also a lot of hard  work
        then maybe some play.

             Please  do  not bring your pets here.  We love  animals  and
        have  a few ourselves but we have no kennel and animals  are  not
        allowed  in the house.   Remember,  strange animals  running free
        bring  the  neighborhood pets and strays our direction.  Some  of
        these are territory dominant and may hurt your pet.


             Basically  what  I am saying is that although  we  love  the
        personal  contact  it also has become much more time  and  energy
        consuming to do so since our Light Family has grown so large.  We
        want  to remain gracious and keep the doors open, but that  means
        that  a team effort is required.  We must support each other  and
        put  back into the system what we take out on both  material  and
        energy levels.  Remember, there are no great things to be done in
        this life, just small things done with great love.
                        In Love and Light, I Am, Solinus

                              ********************

             In  our  last newsletter we introduced Bill Huxhold  to  you
        when  he  wrote about natural gardening methods and  offered  two
        weekend  intensives for "hands on" experience.  We regret to  say






        that  these  courses have been canceled due to the  lack  of  re-
        sponse.
                              ********************

             Jean  Petersen just put out the "Ashtar Command  Unification
        Plan", a 16 page booklet.  It is on the Kor Communication  Energy
        Grid System for Planet Earth by Cmdrs. Ashtar and Korton.   There
        is  some  good information on accessing and  being  prepared  for
        individual  representation  for the Command on the  planet.   For
        your  copy send $3 to Meridian Publishing, P. O. Box 642,  Castle
        Rock, CO  80104.

                      ( Subscription & Log On Information )

             There are now seven back issues of our Bimonthly  Newsletter
        which  are available upon request for $5.00/copy.   They  contain
        much  information  which is still relevant and may  provide  some
        clarity on subjects discussed in subsequent newsletters.  We  are
        pleased to send a complimentary copy of our newsletter to  anyone
        you think will be interested.  Love donations are greatly  appre-
        ciated  and  go to Spirit's work to create Heaven  on  Earth.   A
        subscription  entitles you to log on to SPIRIT, B.B.S.   You  may
        access  this  information through the HQ Bulletin  Board  or  the
        NODES listed below:

        East Coast HQ            Lady Cmdr. Laea         Cmdr. J
        Spirit BBS               Spirit BBS              The Mother Ship
        Vilas, NC                Montgomery, AL          Holiday, FL
        1-704-297-5973           1-205-260-9687          1-813-938-1770
        1-704-297-6003           7 PM to 7 AM
        24 hours 7 days

             For  a year's subscription (six bimonthly issues)  and  user
        status on SPIRIT, B.B.S. please send $30.00 to:
                                 Judith A. Wells
                                 Rt. 2, Box 309B
                                Vilas, NC  28692
                                  704/297-2342

------ End of Article ------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Orvotron Newsletter JulyAugust part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 91 23:12:38 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 565
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2549 talk.religion.newage:7351





----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your perusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------



----- Orvotron Newsletter July\August part 1 ----------------------------



        Bimonthly Newsletter, July\August, 1991
        Orvotron, Rt. 2., Box 309B, Vilas, NC  28692 [phone]


             Greetings Ascending Star People. In the preceding two months
        an  enormous  endeavor has been undertaken and  is  being  accom-
        plished  at Orvotron thanks to the generosity and involvement  of
        our  growing family.  Where once was a cleared area of  land  now
        stands  a huge 39' by 39' pyramid.  Although not yet finished  it
        rises  to  a  height of 25' 8" and stands as  a  symbol  of  love
        achieved  through our combined efforts in the Mission  to  create
        Heaven on Earth.

             After six weeks of intense,  focused building  we ran out of
        siding  material and money to proceed further.  At that  point  I
        said, O.K. Spirit now you want me to write to our family of Light
        Beings to tell them all that has transpired since our last  news-
        letter.  So here goes.

             Soon after  our last mailing  the forms  were made  and  the
        footers were poured with cement, then the block walls went up and
        we proceeded to build the first floor decking.  It is the biggest
        of the three floors (almost 50 percent of the total building) and
        it  took over a week to frame in the floor joists and cover  them
        with subflooring.  From this point we were able to proceed to the
        second floor box and build to it with the side and corner  angles
        which  were  set  at a 51.5 degree angle on the  corners  and  42
        degrees on the sides.  This endeavor took another two weeks.   By
        then we could see the design clearly and the way Ashtar wanted us
        to  proceed.  After flooring the second level we then  built  the
        third, floored it and continued the angle of the sides up to  the
        apex by building the corner braces.

             Each  side  took  many  2 x 6's  of  different lengths, plus
        triple  2 x 6's at the four corners of each floor box as it  rose
        ever  higher  toward the apex above the third  floor.   This  was
        peaked with a temporary 4' x 4' copper pyramid on May 26th.   Our
        directed  goal  was to reach this point in construction  by  June
        1st.   Once  this  was done the structure  began  energizing  and
        raising  the energy on the east coast immediately.  This was  one
        of the many goals that held us fast to this large task and under-
        taking as we knew the end result would benefit all on the planet.
        From  the  parking area which is above the site a  pyramid  shape
        loomed to greet all who entered or left Orvotron.  We were elated
        to say the least.

             Next came the tremendous task of wall framing and putting in
        the  windows.   In the basement of the main house  I  had  stored
        fifty  windows for this project many years ago as I  had  advance
        information about Orvotron, the pyramid and its importance to the
        future  in which we'd be involved.  But upon inspection of  these
        it  was  found they had drawn moisture and had dry  rotted  where






        they rested on the floor in the storage area.  My heart sank with
        this new discovery as my plans for how things would progress were
        set back and I wondered how to proceed?  My main concern was  the
        cash flow, which up until that point had kept things going  with-
        out  frills and did not allow for large, unexpected  expenditures
        such as now confronted us.

             A  rather large group  from the Miami area was here at  that
        time  and the men had vigorously helped with blocking  the  floor
        joists  which is necessary to stabilize the floor beams  in  each
        floor  system.   But  now we had no windows and this  had  to  be
        planned out as it was time to put them in before framing out  the
        angled  walls.  We had four hundred dollars and were  faced  with
        the  possibility of a bill for several thousand to  buy  windows.
        The group from Miami and others showed their support by  donating
        to  keep it going.  Spirit said to me. "Relax, call around.   The
        windows  are  in Boone (the nearest town).  Trust in me  and  all
        things are possible."

             After a couple of days we found out that one glass store  in
        Boone  had  over one hundred double thermal panes  -  glass  that
        could  be framed into walls.  Exactly what we needed.  So,  early
        one  morning I rode to Boone to see Tom, the owner of the  store.
        It  was 7:30 a.m. when I arrived and I asked to see the  list  of
        glass  he  had accumulated over the past six years.  He  had  100
        windows  in all sizes, thicknesses and shapes from  triangles  to
        trapezoids  to  rectangles  to huge 100  pound  picture  windows.
        These  would  have retailed at about eight thousand  dollars  had
        they  actually gone into the structures they were originally  cut
        for but had not for one reason or the other fit the intended jobs
        and had been reduced in price to clear space needed for storage.

             After he understood  what I was saying I wanted he was ready
        to  talk glass.  To set the mood for a trade I said, "What  would
        you take for all these windows?"  He said that I was now  talking
        a language he understood because all the windows were in his way.
        He  said he would take $850.00 for all of them.  I said that  was
        more  than I had but I would sleep on it and return the next  day
        with  my decision.  I asked Spirit that night for guidance.   The
        next  morning I was told to go buy all of the windows.   However,
        before I could tell Tom I wanted all the windows,  a woman in the
        office  produced  another list of 45 more!!!  I told  him  if  he
        would  throw  them in I'd take them all for  the  original  price
        quoted.   He  agreed, so we got 145 double thermal  pane  windows
        retailing for over $8,000.00 for $850.00.

             Now came the real challenge - getting all that glass in  one
        piece to the mountain.  It took two days and four truck loads  of
        glass.  We decided it was best to leave  some of the bigger  win-
        dows  at the glass store in Boone until we knew where they  would
        go  in  building Orvotron.  By now my head was total  jello  over
        windows  of many different sizes and shapes ranging  from  small,
        standard  size  windows  to the largest one, a huge 6  x  8  foot
        picture window.








             My next concern was where to put the windows in the walls of
        the pyramid.  YIPS!  A confusing, very complex set of numbers  in
        many  various sizes now confronted us.  To make matters worse the
        list  of window sizes we had been given did not match the  actual
        sizes  of  the windows we had bought.  This meant  measuring  and
        sorting  through all the windows to create workable  combinations
        that  fit  each level and wall.  Ray, a close  friend  and  Light
        brother who has been on this project since its inception, took to
        the  task of sorting out this mess of windows to usable  combina-
        tions  for each wall.  With the help of Spirit we then  proceeded
        to frame each wall to fit the window combinations we were told to
        use.   This job took two weeks of precise planning,  framing  and
        then the actual installation.

             I will admit that  there were several times during the  past
        six  weeks  that I was ready to quit.  But each time  Spirit  and
        some  giving soul came through with what was needed to take  this
        huge  project  to  its next step.  Although  we  are  temporarily
        stalled now, needing more siding lumber and money to proceed,  my
        faith in Spirit's influence on this project has not faltered as I
        know  all of you loving souls in that same influence  are  behind
        us.   So, things came to a screeching halt, if only for  a  short
        time, in order to get out this newsletter.  So be it.  Spirit  is
        never  wrong.   This structure will be completed at  the  perfect
        time of its needed use.

                             ( More on the Pyramid )

             The messages I receive from Spirit and then transmit through
        this newsletter to you are verified.  Solinus is often the  first
        one  to hear some of the most outlandish things right out of  the
        blue from me.  After I tell her, the message is verified one  way
        or another at a quick clip.  Sometimes supporting information  is
        later  found on the computer bulletin board network or perhaps  a
        newsletter  or  passage in a book appears  to  substantiate  what
        Spirit has told me.  We never know how this will take place.

            The design for the pyramid was one such message.  Immediately
        after  I began to actually put the design on paper we  were  sent
        (without  having requested it) a brochure detailing a  greenhouse
        which  was  designed for Brother Harry on the west  coast.   This
        verified  to  us  that what I had been receiving  about  what  it
        should look like was indeed the proper design.  It is our opinion
        that  the pyramid is the most important project of  our  combined
        mission  on  the  east coast at this time.  We  already  see  its
        impact as a powerful catalyst to raise the love vibration in  our
        group  endeavor here on Earth.  Your support in  this  continuing
        venture  is needed and we will continue to do our part in  return
        by  getting all the necessary things done.  We do what we say  we
        are doing and always will.  It can proceed in no other way.

             The  Merkaba vehicles  are already using the pyramid in  the
        not  yet completed aspect realities of what it is we have set  in
        motion.   This will then help release the dark pockets of  energy
        that  are resisting the love of the Father now rising  on  Earth.
        Now all adjustments can benefit renewal which is being stepped up






        to levels that all can now see and feel as never before.

             At Orvotron  it is as though life is overflowing with energy
        and this can be seen in all living things as they burst forth  in
        levels  we have never witnessed before.  It truly is Genesis  and
        we  rejoice in knowing why it is taking place - a  vibrant,  love
        rebirth.  It's now near, very near, the last step of the rebirth,
        in Earth's ascension back into the love vibration.

             In  the couple of years  I have been a commander  many  have
        been actively involved in this work with me.  The main  need  now
        is  unity of those here in service cooperating in a  tight  group
        plan.   My personal observations and feelings are that  what  re-
        mains is now a point of focus for our combined mission that  will
        bear  fruit.  The pyramid is the east coast's symbolic  grounding
        device  for this to take  place.  My thoughts,  ever  reinforced,
        are  that this is in full force because of our combined  efforts,
        but  needs fine tuning through a worldwide  cooperative  network.
        Orvotron  is now setting this in motion but we need  your  input,
        support and cooperation.

             One  way to become more involved  is to reach out to  others
        who are not yet networked into this HQ.  You can open the door by
        sharing information about our combined efforts  to create  Heaven
        on  Earth.   It is time to bridge the gap  which  censorship  has
        created but is now collapsing.  The people have the right to know
        what's really happening on Earth so they can intelligently choose
        the  direction most appropriate for them.  The old saying,  "What
        you  don't  know can't hurt you" is not necessarily true  in  the
        present situation.

             Many have asked if the crystals and Energy Rod are in  place
        in the pyramid.  The answer is "not yet".  The reason is that the
        crystal for the top of the energy rod has not appeared yet.  This
        special crystal is six or more inches long by three inches  wide,
        double terminated and clear with no cracks.  Someone knows  where
        it  is and it will appear at the right time.  Many smaller  crys-
        tals  are  also  needed for the Star of David  grids  within  the
        pyramid.  Like the main crystal I'm sure they will appear as this
        is a joint effort even in its final design and function.

            The pyramid belongs to all of us through our free will choice
        to  be  a part of its material manifestation.  Many  other  Light
        Workers,  once  informed, will join us in  this  venture.   These
        kinds  of projects are planned efforts directed and  designed  to
        bring  in  more light.  Each step toward the completion  of  this
        energy  transmitter   fine tunes all life, not just on  the  east
        coast but throughout the planet and other fringe universes, in  a
        grid now energizing.  I'm sure many of you can testify that these
        effects are being felt as you blend with the subtle, much  faster
        rising energy.

             When  I first arrived on the belt buckle  of the Bible  Belt
        there was much unrest about the things we were saying and  doing.
        Now instead of a constant uneasiness, a calm has come over  those
        who were resisting change and frightened by anyone or thing  that






        was  different in any way from their fixed beliefs.  When we  put
        the  temporary  copper  apex on the pyramid  the  love  vibration
        quickly  rose  and mellowed out those around us  replacing  their
        fear  with  the  calming effect of the love  this  structure  now
        radiates and sends out in all directions.

             Beyond that the healing effect on my body has been unbeliev-
        able  in the short time of the pyramid's influence.  I  feel  ten
        years younger and all sorts of ills have now been forgotten.   My
        life  force has risen and the deficiencies in my  body  chemistry
        have balanced.  I feel more whole, not only in my material  body,
        but in my energy and spiritual bodies as well.

            The job is not done yet, but we've got one heck of a start on
        this project and my feelings will be better understood as each of
        you  in your own good time visit us and see for yourself  what  a
        combined  effort can achieve and create.  We hope that you  enjoy
        the  pictures we have included of the material  manifestation  of
        the  east coast pyramid.  We have taken step by step pictures  of
        this project at the end of each day and plan to assemble them  at
        a  later date in a detailed account.  We want to send a  brochure
        of this to all who have contributed in anyway toward the building
        of this pyramid.

                               ( What Lies Ahead )

             In the ongoing communique with Spirit lately, a verse in the
        Bible  kept popping up about the dead will rise again.  This  was
        explained as a lifting of the living dead from the lower frequen-
        cy  of  the Third Dimension into the faster love  frequencies  of
        Spirit.  As this happens these now unawakened souls will  achieve
        an understanding of what it is to be alive in a light body versus
        the material body which is presently holding them fast in limita-
        tion as beings much less than what they really are.

             Fear was also touched upon as a very unnecessary approach to
        the changes ahead.  Just trust Spirit and "KNOW" all will  easily
        take  place  with very little, if any, distress.  Once  the  Love
        vibration  is  assimilated  a very pleasing  state  of  being  is
        reached.   It  is  like returning home and  being  surrounded  by
        blissful love.   A sense of well being will abruptly end all  the
        feelings  of being lost in the maze of confusion and anxiety  due
        to life's pressures.  This is not easily put into words but  some
        of you already understand what I am saying.  You have felt  these
        changes  as  waves of love which for short periods of  time  have
        superseded  all other feelings.  These times will get  longer  in
        duration  and  eventually you will not lapse back  into  the  old
        diminishing vibrations, but will accept completely and close  the
        gap to a full light blended union with Spirit.

             At this juncture of Earth's  ascension  Spirit has passed on
        to  me  many amazing insights into the times ahead.   Energy  has
        been  a topic of repeated discussion as it was increased  in  the
        beginning of June and will continually rise and go off scale into
        late  September.   In relation to this there is also  a  form  of
        renewal, Genesis, taking place which effects every cell of every-






        thing in the material dimension, not only here on Earth but  also
        in all of the fringe universes which like Earth are also involved
        in renewal ascension.

             Because of the changes  that must occur it is important that
        you  understand  a  cleansing must purify Earth in  order  for  a
        complete  rejuvenation to occur.  Because of this we  can  expect
        all  sorts of things to happen in the eventual,  total  cleansing
        which has been massively accelerated.  My inner Spirit voice  has
        said the hour is late.  The time of rejuvenation is  accelerating
        as  never before as we proceed into the higher,  more  harmonious
        energies of the Fifth Dimension, soon to be Earth's next reality.

             Many  will soon experience their other  frequency bodies and
        after  an adjustment period during which an understanding of  the
        forgotten,  light frequencies returns they will open to a  better
        understanding  of  what they really are.  In doing so  they  will
        realize  that  by  learning to adjust  to  these  frequency  body
        changes  they  can easily go in and out of the  other  dimensions
        with  new  understanding and control.  This will set  them  free,
        never  to  be controlled again in any limited  situation  set  in
        motion  by those wishing to control others around them.  This  is
        the shift, so to speak, that many are now being told about.

                            ( Some Things To Ponder )

             In  order for Star people like us to enter  into the materi-
        al   dimension  we had to be lowered into a  dense,  much  slower
        frequency.   This was not an easy task.  All of us were Lords  of
        Light,  Angels, or Ascended Masters.  It was our choice to  serve
        in the Mission.  We knew the situation on Earth was one close  to
        extinction  due  to the destroyers that gave  little  concern  to
        outcomes  effecting  life here.  They had  ruthlessly  set  their
        plans of domination and control in place.  They destroyed or kept
        secret  at every turn the truths set down for each evolving  life
        form  to use as the foundation and guide in its  eventual  return
        home  to  Spirit. That created constant faltering  that  returned
        them  into  cycles  which kept them stuck in  an  endless  repeat
        performance of little worth.  It was apparent that little of  the
        lost  knowledge would or could surface to help life  here  under-
        stand  the evolutionary cycle which is now occurring.   Our  help
        was  the only way those trapped in a school which  teaches  right
        thinking and action through cause and effect could reopen to  the
        fact that they are a part of a much bigger family; they are  here
        learning to be a part of the whole through repetitious experience
        through what they create.

             In this controlled situation  Earth too  has been repeatedly
        stopped  from  evolving in the natural, cycled event  of  renewal
        back  to the Source.  Our intervention was due to the  cries  for
        help  from not only the beings on Earth but also from Earth  her-
        self  who was calling for assistance.  We came to free all  those
        caught  in the cycle of control and bondage, to help  allow  life
        here  to advance to its birth right of ascension into the  higher
        realities,  their true destination kept in secrecy as a means  to
        control and bond them to illusion.







             Entities and areas of rebellion are very minute compared  to
        what  all else exists in.  Those choosing this situation  do  not
        exist within the whole, but rather exist on the fringes of  crea-
        tion, the very outer edges of the "donut".  This is necessary  in
        the  Divine  Plan  as each has freedom of  choice  which  creates
        polarity,  the opposite reality energy ring that holds  the  "do-
        nut's"  outer  shape.  Each dimensional zone also has a  ring  of
        opposite  energy  to separate one dimension from the  other.   If
        seen  from  a side view these would look like  circles  or  bands
        encompassing  very  large areas of pulsing energy.  If  a  pebble
        were dropped in a still pond the ripples produced would  simulate
        what  I'm  saying here.  Each dimension is  surrounded  by  rings
        which move outward in spirals around these areas.

             In  order to pass safely through this without being  altered
        there  are doors, portals or points of entry and  departure,  be-
        tween  the different zones which are protected by Metatron.  They
        are like holographic cylinders.  These are shielded tunnels  that
        are  thoroughfares for interdimensional movement.  They  are  the
        only way in or out of the higher or lower dimensions.  Dimensions
        contain frequencies which are separated by bands from the others.
        These are called bandwidths.

                              ( What We Are )

             What makes  some of us  different  from others  is that some
        were  allowed  to  pass through these doors  and  thus  are  less
        veiled.  They can achieve what limited mortals do not believe  is
        possible.   In some ways the situation here had progressed  to  a
        state  that  was considered by some almost hopeless  regarding  a
        positive transition for life on Earth.  It was also felt by  some
        that  the new beginning, Heaven on Earth, would not  benefit  all
        life  here  as  many still refused to wake up to  the  idea  that
        Heaven was descending to Earth.  Much had to be overcome to  help
        others  become  aware as this process had  long  been  forgotten.
        However, as diligent Light Beings we are here to see that as many
        as  possible  "who  are willing" can have  this  opportunity  and
        become a part of Heaven as it comes to Earth.  It is our gift  of
        love to help open all the forgotten doors which can and will free
        all those who wish it.

             Regretfully,  some  of us having been lowered  in  frequency
        have not overridden the temporary veiling and social conditioning
        to the point of activation.  A void has resulted in the  "ACTIVE"
        part many were to play in our combined goal and reason for  being
        here.   This is sad as each of us at some point were supposed  to
        jump  in  with abandon to serve as Spirit's outer arm   and  help
        humanity and all life here.


                          ( The Asteroid or Planetoid )

             Many feel that  the approaching planetoid  is a situation of
        fear  and negativity they can't buy into.  In some ways  I  would
        like  to  agree, but let me explain further.  First  off,  it  is






        coming, this is a fact.

             If you realize  there is balance and imbalance in all  crea-
        tion certain things make sense.  The Dracos are not all  negative
        nor  is  all of what they are doing.  There are good  Dracos  and
        there are negative, rebellious Dracos working against the  Divine
        Plan by creating havoc in their idea of what's what.  If we  look
        we can see the same things happening in many of Earth's cultures.
        We Light Workers are representatives here to instill or create  a
        new and positive balance.  Imbalance here jeopardizes the  exist-
        ence  of  the "many and one" other parts of creation.   By  going
        overboard in their chosen direction the destroyers are  effecting
        every part of the whole.  The fringes by just being a part of all
        creation  must change in the process, as a natural event  of  the
        "donut's" next expansion outward.

             Here's something  to think about and maybe you'll understand
        our last newsletter a little better and gain a better understand-
        ing  of the reason we are all here together at this time.   There
        have always been negative zones and all the Father's angels  were
        warned  to  avoid  them.  When this was ignored  the  angels  who
        entered  these areas lowered their vibrations and in short  order
        began to experience a negative reality.

             By building pyramids on Earth's chakra points, we are  rais-
        ing energy to help elevate the negative aspects of a lower reali-
        ty to the much higher vibrations of the positive love  frequency.
        When  those of a slower, more negative vibration are in or  enter
        into  these zones (once the zones are activated,  elevated,  bal-
        anced  and put back into harmony) they too will rise out  of  the
        trap  of  duality just by being in the influence of  this  higher
        energy.  It is that conducive to creating changes in all  touched
        by it.  All zones can easily be altered back to the rising  light
        frequencies; it's harmony entering areas of disharmony - a polic-
        ing  effect  that occurs naturally in cycled  events  related  to
        balance in the Divine Plan.

             We  are now experiencing  this taking place  on Earth.   The
        energy  is being raised and the negative aspects of all  life  in
        this influence and also all life coming into it will be effected.
        In  and of itself it is a remarkable thing to witness life as  it
        is  altered, elevated and then returned back to the natural  bal-
        anced  harmony, the force it was created in, thus  regaining  its
        true life force.

             So, in one respect,  we are  a trauma team  here  to  create
        positive, beneficial outcomes for all involved.  We aren't at war
        or  into hurting or destroying life.  We need to understand  that
        negativity  springs from the lack of the higher energy  of  love.
        This trait is a result of being exposed for long periods of  time
        to low frequency, and negative energy that starves life forms and
        creates a lessened ability to function as each part was  designed
        to  function.  It's like a degenerating, crippling  disease  that
        slowly  eats  away at life and creates imbalance in  each  minute
        part on every level.  We came to inform, to help raise the  ener-
        gy, and give first aid.  This helps all life out of this  debili-






        tating  situation,  whether they are Dracos or humans,  or  micro
        living  parts of it.  Only then will the door be opened  back  to
        the  Source  energies, our origin and root in the great  Tree  of
        Life.

             We   are  the advance team, here to explain choices  to  the
        thinking group which has the power to reason and is now  involved
        in  a scenario which they are not aware exists.  We are  here  to
        awaken  them  to  this forgotten knowledge.  We  aren't  here  to
        negatively  respond to anything already in place.  Our job is  to
        inform as many as possible that renewal is an opportunity to  get
        out  of  a negative reality and into an  unlimited  existence;  a
        chance  to  break the continuous cycles of this and  to  graduate
        into the Divine Plan, their place of origin.

             All life eventually  returns  back  to  the Divine Plan, the
        Father's love force in which all else exists, but before this can
        take place, knowledge of its existence must precede actual  sepa-
        ration  being overcome.  Denial of separation creates "the  shell
        of  the  cosmic  egg".  Acceptance allows energy  to  change,  to
        become a positive aspect which can bond to a different  polarity,
        thus becoming a part of the inner reality instead of the negative
        shell enclosing it.  When this occurs many new experiences can be
        explored  until the "donut" in cycled renewal once again  expands
        farther into the endless expanse of darkness.

             This  planet  and other  local  fringe   systems   are   now
        being prepared, harmonized and elevated toward this experience by
        the  energy  shifts taking place everywhere in  the  fringe  uni-
        verses.   Any life form coming into this renewal, aware of it  or
        not, is going to experience it also.  Hopefully these "creatures"
        and  all other life will be altered to the point they can  accept
        the  positive aspect, rather than rejecting it, so they  too  can
        ascend.   To show them unconditional love is all we can do.   All
        life  has freedom of choice.  It has always been this way and  it
        always will be.  Do you understand?


------ Continued in Orvotron Newsletter July\August part 2 ---------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Orvotron Newsletter JulyAugust part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 91 23:13:56 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2550 talk.religion.newage:7352





------ Orvotron Newsletter July\August part 2 ----------------------------



               ( Are We Part of a Team or Doing Our Own Thing? )


             The time is late  and  we  may be  in a situation similar to
        those  we came to help who refuse to wake up.  In some  instances
        more confusion than light is being spread.  Some who believe they
        are  serving  humanity may in fact not be doing so.   I'm  saying
        this  because  our unity of action is being undermined  by  fear,
        greed  and ego.  Some are allowing third dimensional  control  to
        enter in and to take charge of what they believe is their  guided
        part.   This may strike some of you hard but as a commander  this
        must be spoken about, as little time remains.  Any deviation from

        our  reason for being here could result,  through  self-motivated
        fancy, in a less than desirable outcome in our mission.

             For instance,  some feel  they are gifted  with powers  that
        control  energy and their work is in this area.  Each of us  have
        this ability and those truly in contact with the Source have been
        trained  in  the proper use of it in our combined  energy.   Some






        individuals are making energy changes in the belief this is their
        function  without consulting other Light Workers who may  be  ef-
        fected by these changes.  Our original plan was to work  coopera-
        tively together using this power as a team effort rather than any
        one  individual  charging out there making  changes  which  could
        effect  the whole.  There still remain individuals thinking  they
        are doing it alone.  This is very wrong thinking.

              One council meeting  on the ships brought out an example of
        the misuse of energy through work done in the DC area by a  small
        group.  Evidently  they were not aware of Ashtar's  message  that
        Washington,  DC  was being monitored by the ships and  needed  no
        interference  from those working with energy on the Earth  plane.
        Because  this was not adhered to some yet to be divulged  counter
        results  were   caused  by this group doing  their  thing.   Such
        actions  should  be discussed prior to enactment with HQ,  or  at
        least with a consensus of Light Workers in the area to be effect-
        ed.   By  allowing themselves to believe they were on  some  very
        important  mission  they inadvertently  overrode  other  on-going
        energy work.

             There is much energy work  happening on the planet but it is
        being  done in a group aspect by many people working together  in
        good contact with each other and the command to prevent  unneces-
        sary  changes  from  taking place in their  sector  or  quadrant.
        Traveling energy "do- gooders" are about to meet some  resistance
        to  their  tampering with a precise plan to which  they  are  not
        adhering or are fully aware of.  The efforts in DC initiated some
        reprisals  and retaliatory moves on Light Workers in many  areas.
        Their "deeds of good will" did not go unnoticed, were not accept-
        ed as intended and created some uneasiness that catapulted into a
        full scale incident causing red alert and offensive action  where
        none  should have occurred.  In the past this type of   interfer-
        ence  was considered a nuisance, if this continues it may  create
        an  incident  effecting the well being of many.  We will  let  it
        rest  there, but in the future do not feel your  thing  overrides
        everything else it may effect.

          ( Retaliation - Our Computer Network has been Under Attack )

             SPIRIT   BBS   and  some of the  other  networked  computers
        around  the  country which update many have  been  under  attack.
        SPIRIT BBS is currently off the air  because we need a part  that
        protects  the  whole computer system from being  destroyed.   The
        last attack took out three thousand dollars of computer hardware.
        Luckily  this was still under warrantee and was replaced free  of
        charge  but this will not be the case in the future.  We feel  it
        is necessary to shut down the system until this is rectified.  We
        aren't  out of business but we did learn about one of  our  weak-
        nesses.   The  needed part costs over three  hundred  dollars  so
        until Spirit sees fit we will not be on line as usual for  twenty
        four hours a day.  Hopefully we will be back up by the time  this
        reaches  all of you. The money for it as always will  come  after
        the actual need is put in place.

                            ( What Is A Commander? )







             What is a commander anyway?   A commander is not someone who
        takes  the  title  due to the need to  feel  important.   Rather,
        commanders  are people who know they are and then take  full  re-
        sponsibility for doing what others may consider impossible.  What
        a commander does is for the good of all and is done in a selfless
        manner  in service to Spirit.  No true commander I know of  is  a
        sooth  sayer, bench warmer type who rattles his or her  lips  and
        does little else.  Some commanders know aches, pains and calluses
        due  to  long hours of purely physical work and then  instead  of
        resting  they are off in other dimensions with no lapse from  the
        pace.  Others spend enormous amounts of time networking to  build
        a  command  structure which can implement  the  group's  combined
        purpose.   Still  others do both in an effort to build  the  very
        foundations necessary to bring Heaven to Earth.

             When  people come to this HQ  saying they are  this or  that
        and  want  to be involved in our efforts my first  impression  is
        based  on their actually doing something (whether it is  here  or
        back  at their home base), not on what they say.  Few really  get
        involved here and many take a look, see the extent of our efforts
        and  leave  having contributed very little.  It  wouldn't  be  so
        frustrating if they went elsewhere, became involved but  remained
        connected  to the evolving group plan they say they are  support-
        ing.  Most of the ones we never hear from again have not  evolved
        beyond their fanciful dreaming of who they are or might be in all
        this.   A true commander is asked to do and then does  regardless
        of the "impossibility" factor or the labor involved.  Just today,
        an  officer related to me that after reflection and  asking  what
        Spirit,   our   Father,   wanted  him  to   do   he   was   told,
        "Everything!!!!"   That's commander material in the making as  he
        is doing just that, with little complaining and a lot of personal
        sacrifice in doing.

             One can  actively  support  the  Mission, this  HQ  or other
        things going on in many ways.  It is important to do so selfless-
        ly  without  letting ego or the need for recognition get  in  the
        way.   This  is one reason we do not  necessarily  publicize  the
        names or the manner of donations received here.  Some folks don't
        need  the public praise and prefer to be involved just  by  doing
        and giving whatever they can contribute, selflessly.

             There are  144,000 of us  which in actuality is a very small
        group.  We will achieve what many have cast aside as impossible -
        the  creation of Heaven on Earth.  We continue to search for  all
        those individuals who are willing to join us and take the  neces-
        sary  steps to complete our mission of love.  To those who   have
        made  themselves known to me and support our efforts  my  sincere
        Love  is  unfaltering  and with you always.   Mere  words  cannot
        express my thanks to you all in this category.

                              ( Earth Changes )

             The west coast  of the  United  States  can  expect some big
        changes  due to the Earth's plates experiencing  severe  pressure
        fluctuations  because of the recent volcanic eruptions  in  Japan






        and the Philippines.  These have effected a circular area in  the
        Pacific and when completely dissipated will have created weakened
        pockets  in every other area of the Pacific ring  involved.   The
        result will be that land masses will be less supported and  could
        sink.  No discloser of times or dates have been given but  events
        could  occur at any time as a result of the impact on the  conti-
        nents effected in this circle area of events.  The Pacific  shelf
        is  now  unstable.  This could be the long awaited  beginning  of
        complete world-wide change.

             Beyond that I will say that the energy shifts of June, July,
        August  and  September will be the most severe to date  and  will
        result  in  massive weather, geological, economic  and  political
        changes  to a degree not yet felt.  The intensity of these is  in
        the hands of those controlling some of these factors and they may
        find they have bitten off more than they can handle.  Beyond this
        Earth  will  respond as she is fed up with the attempts  to  play
        with mother nature.

             Look at your astrology charts  for  some  interesting align-
        ments  in  July.  If we get through that part the rest  could  be
        milder  but indications are that June was just a sample  of  July
        and  August.  September will  be a month for settling of  already
        permanent  change, as August will be a month for some  of  what's
        going  on to be completed which will effect some predictions.  In
        that statement some causes are being made by groups opposing  our
        work  of  instilling  the Divine plan back  into  Earth's  energy
        field. Due to a universal law being broken some of these factions
        are  being  dealt a blow by the councils of Light.  It may  be  a
        rough ride in these months.

                         ( Some Interesting Sidelines )

             Some  material coming through here has mentioned that  there
        are  no  fleets out there standing by.  I must  respond  as  your
        commander  to this material.  This is my personal point  of  view
        and  is  not meant to be conflicting in whole or part  to  anyone
        else's newsletter in reference to things to come.

             My personal, remembered experience is of a  space  ship that
        I  came  on  to Earth.  I can honestly say that  I  often  attend
        meetings aboard the ships in that fleet.  Many times during these
        meetings references have been made about lifting people off Earth
        in  the event our stabilization work does not create an  environ-
        ment suitable to sustaining life on the planet.  All Light Beings
        are being monitored and  your safe departure, if necessary,  will
        take  place. Due to some interference in communication with  many
        and the fact that some people are relocating quickly,  monitoring
        does at times become difficult.   It would be much better in some
        instances  if people would question their directives before  just
        taking  off  with little reflection on things such  as  a  sudden
        relocation.   In some cases moving is necessary, but  please  re-
        peatedly  check  your guidance.  Relocation guidance  is  a  very
        clear  message that, in my experience, is  discernibly  different
        from all others in its heart felt urgency.







                           ( Fear, Paranoia and Love )

             Some are saying that at times what we say in our  newsletter
        is  negative.  Can't  a commander who is dealing with attack,  in
        full understanding of what's going on and who has the ability  to
        separate  illusion from reality, tell it like it is?    Many  who
        need  to  open to the possibilities, now shield  themselves  from
        negativity through the sheer fact of denial.  These are in for  a
        few  big  shocks.  The reason I'm saying  this  is  because  many
        people  are  seeing  a very limited amount of  what  is  actually
        taking  place on the planet.  This has caused some to take  sides
        against  those  who know and accept all the truth.   We  are  not
        trying  to  frighten  anyone, but are attempting  to  update  and
        inform in our out-going communications.

             Discussions at council meetings  on the ships are about  the
        stark  reality of on-going situations created by those  who  care
        little  about  your idea of what's what, nor do  they  have  much
        respect  for the light and love we feel will turn things  around.
        We  are aware of their ideas toward our mission and we  are  also
        aware that refusing to accept knowledge of what is going on under
        your  nose  is not the answer.   At HQ, thanks  to  the  computer
        network  the  many  articles and newsletters sent  here,  and  in
        addition  council  meetings on the ships, we are on  the  leading
        edge  of this knowledge in its uncensored state.  Because of  the
        kind of things we focus on (what the governments of the world are
        doing  in  secrecy,  what the various  E.T.'s  are  doing,  Earth
        changes,  etc.) a  line is being drawn.  We can only  divulge  in
        our  newsletters  the amount of truth that we  feel  the  average
        reader may be ready and able to know.

             Granted Love is the supreme force everywhere.  But there are
        still those in its rising influence who are up to no good actual-
        ly   creating unspeakable atrocities toward life here  on  Earth.
        Our knowledge of this and the putting out of a little of it  does
        not  make  us negative or in the business of drawing  it  to  us.
        Rather,  we are trying to focus others on both sides of the  coin
        here,  so their reactions won't be due to ignorance in  the  very
        real conflict now taking place.

             As  Star  people we must abide by the rules  of  the  Divine
        plan,  the universal laws.  When the negative entities here  step
        over  the line regarding these laws it is WAR.  Only then  do  we
        step  in.   (Please understand that wars are, for the most  part,
        grizzly affairs which we prefer to avoid.)   In the present situa-
        tion one side truly stands for Love, Freedom and Joy in abundance
        for  all  life.  The other side stands  for  domination,  deceit,
        control and the general destruction of all laws which govern  any
        semblance  of correct living toward other life  forms,  including
        Mother Earth as a part of the whole.  They have no rules but make
        them  up as they see fit with little regard for any one's  rights
        in their decisions.

             There IS an enemy, people, and that enemy does not love you.
        You are of no worth to them.  These entities will take over if we
        do not bring you information to better your understanding of  the






        situation.   These zones that are out of balance lurk  with  many
        horrors  few of you realize.  Earth is just a small part  of  the
        effected  area.  Please realize this is no game and your part  is
        monitored by these entities.  All of us are in the fray, like  it
        or not. This statement rests on your free will choice to be here.
        If  we don't ban together then we are weakened by  our  disbanded
        membership,  thus "easy pickings" for their intent to work  their
        deeds of darkness.

             They  have even gotten into our circles of  Light  spreading
        distrust, disinformation and generally creating havoc.  In giving
        support  to HQ you are expanding the means to further  serve  the
        Light  in the final stages of this conflict.  Through  our  group
        effort we can create better ways to serve each other while  here,
        from  spreading  information that overrides  censorship,  to  the
        actual building of structures such as the pyramid that raises the
        Love vibration here on Earth.  The old saying, "Divided we  fall,
        together  we  stand" is a truth.  It can be our strength  or  our
        weakness.  We love you!  This subject is not meant to be negative
        but put forth in my Love of all of you.

             In closing  I would like to give my heart felt thanks to all
        for  your gifts of love that are supporting the many projects  at
        Orvotron.  Without you and your support none of what's transpired
        could  have  gotten this far.  You are  indeed  Angels,  Ascended
        Masters  and Beings of Light.  I love all of you and your  lovely
        letters  reflect that love returned.  Keep up the good  work,  as
        much remains to be done.
                                 Peace and Love,
                                Commander Kortron

                                  ( Sanctuary )

             Now you've read  Kortron's account  of the  past two months,
        but believe me it is only one side of the story.  For six  weeks,
        although  he  was on the property, we virtually didn't  see  each
        other from dawn to twilight.  All else but the pyramid ceased  to
        exist for him and I accepted as my responsibility much of what he
        usually does around here, from running to the hardware or  build-
        ing  supply  stores to general maintenance of  the  property.   I
        learned a lot, did a lot and let some things go undone.

             I  planted and tended the garden virtually by myself in  the
        plot next to the pyramid and watched it grow as the pyramid grew.
        Simultaneously I watched Star Child Adel grow as she ran  between
        the two projects constantly having to be warned to be safe and to
        stay  away  from  and out of virtually everything  we  were  both
        doing.   But soon I had radishes in the garden the size of  eggs,
        the pyramid was outlined against the trees and sky and  Adel was,
        to my joy, capably picking weeds instead of vegetable plants  and
        traversing  the wood piles, tools and steps of the  pyramid.   We
        had not only survived but grown as we created.

              An incredible genesis  has occurred  on Stone Mountain this
        year.  I have never before witnessed such an explosion of  growth
        and lushness.  It's as though the plants and insects are reaching






        out to absorb every morsel of sunshine and rain in an attempt  to
        be the best, most productive they can be.  Of course there's  the
        pyramid  working its magic - healing, energizing,  balancing  and
        adding power to the very grid work of Mother Earth.  Even in  its
        unfinished state you can feel its power; tune into its vibration.
        As  each  floor was added the swirling cone of energy it is  fun-
        neling into the earth became more apparent.  With each window and
        board  put in place the love force coming to this  planet  became
        more  contained, directed.  Now the preliminary siding  is  being
        nailed  up and the very structure itself is resonating,  bringing
        in the Accelerated Light, transmuting the darkness.

             By early June I was tired and just wanted to sleep for a few
        days  but believed that opportunity was no where in  sight.   "Be
        careful  what you ask for" I was quickly reminded as I allowed  a
        virus  to  set  in which put me in the  bed  almost  immediately.
        Fortunately the pyramid was at a point (no apex pun intended)  so
        that  Kortron could excuse himself to care for Adel and me,  plus
        rain set in which further slowed him down.

             Being a rather well grounded Virgo  I've not been  too prone
        to  actually  feeling energy.  I'm more  the  active,  intuitive,
        empathetic  to people type.   But the energy this  pyramid  reso-
        nates  can  be  felt physically.  On about the fifth  day  of  my
        sleeping binge, perhaps as a test of the pyramid's healing  power
        (dubious me), I coaxed my aching body up the driveway and climbed
        the  stairs  of the pyramid to the King's Chamber.    Beyond  the
        open  framework I could see the mountain ranges off in  the  dis-
        tance,  the lush greens of the forests mellowing into the  valley
        and the fluffy white and gray clouds dancing in the breeze  above
        what is truly part of Heaven on Earth now.

             Normally, this same scene makes me appreciative of the abun-
        dance  and  love  in my life, but this time I  was  simply  over-
        whelmed.  I wanted to close my eyes, to meditate, but my body had
        other  ideas.   My head began to swim in dizziness  as  my  solar
        plexus  swirled and rolled simultaneously.  I sat down in a  heap
        on  the  rough floor completely unable to hold myself  erect  any
        longer.  The aches intensified, the nausea increased and I yield-
        ed almost unwillingly to a power much larger than myself.

             Perhaps if I had stayed longer these intense feelings  would
        have  subsided.   Perhaps if I had simply set ego  aside  all  my
        internal  upheavals would have dispersed.  But I couldn't let  go
        that  much.  I became anxious to get out of the force  field  and
        compelled  myself back down the stairs and away from  the  energy
        which  had  enveloped me.  My fear of this never  before  experi-
        enced, balancing power was greater than my desire to let it  work
        its  magic on me.  I momentarily felt more sick than I had  prior
        to  the ascent from the house to the pyramid.  I went "home"  and
        back to the security of my blanket covered bed.

             The energy  being directed  from above  through the apex and
        down  the  central openings in the floors of the pyramid  was  in
        control  regardless of my fears and ego based need to  hold  onto
        them.  The next morning I was practically back to normal and  the






        following  day not only had my usual almost "hyper" energy  state
        returned, but a very noticeable change had occurred.  I was  more
        mellow, more balanced, more whole than ever before.

             What we as a team  are creating  on this  power  point is an
        incredible  healing  device.  All the things I  have  read  about
        pyramid energy and all the things Kortron has been telling me for
        the past three years did not really prepare me for what I person-
        ally  have experienced by having this monument to universal  love
        in my back yard.  As I set these words on paper I feel inadequate
        to explain what I feel, what I know about this receiver/transmit-
        ter  device.  The east coast of this continent will never be  the
        same and the pyramid's power is not even complete.  The power and
        grounding rods are not in place.  The walls are not up or sealed,
        the apex is a simple copper pyramid set on top of the  framework.
        The crystal ball has arrived (thank you Star Man and Brenda)  but
        is not in place, the crystal grid work in the floors are not laid
        out (please send your crystals to go in it), and the stain  glass
        window  has not yet been delivered for the Solar Cross.   Nothing
        is really finished about this pyramid and yet its work has  begun
        in earnest.  It is amazing!!!

             We too  have  only begun, my family of Light Workers.  There
        is  much  healing, fine tuning and example setting  yet  to  take
        place.  Our individual lights are dim compared to the shining  we
        must  do  in the future.  But our missions are  gaining  clarity.
        Our  team  is coming together and our goal will be  reached.   We
        volunteered,  yes, but we were also selected from a  much  larger
        group  of souls who desired to come to this beautiful planet  for
        this  great change time.  We had achieved a level of soul  growth
        which  prepared us to endure, persist and overcome all the  veil-
        ing, all the social consciousness programming and all the pain of
        third  dimensional reality.  We are well prepared  and  certainly
        trained and skilled for our individual input toward the whole.

             We have much work to do, dear  brothers  and sisters, but in
        our hearts, in our very souls we know the Divine Plan is  perfect
        and that patience is our hardest task this time around.  We  must
        remain as one with each other, combining our skills, our  energy,
        our love and our focus so that those we came to help "to see  The
        Light" will become one with us.

             There are many entities who have contributed to the physical
        manifestation of the pyramid.  I have been amazed at your  desire
        to  be involved, to contribute whatever and however you  can,  to
        trust  that we are doing what we say we are doing.  Some  perhaps
        will  never  see this structure but they have  given  freely  and
        their support is boundless.  Others have taken the time to travel
        here from as far away as Venezuela, Puerto Rico, Colombia,  South
        America via Miami to lend a hand, a back or moral support because
        they listened to their inner guidance and proceeded to do as they
        were advised.  We have received towels and linens from people who
        read  in a past newsletter that ours were growing thin from  wear
        and  washing.  Folks have sent personal crystals for the  pyramid
        grid work that most assuredly were hard to part with and the list
        goes  on.  We have been pleased with the number of  entities  who






        have chosen to resubscribe to our newsletter and who have  passed
        on  names and addresses of others who might like to also join  us
        by subscribing.

             Kortron, Adel  and  I are blessed to have each of you in our
        lives.  We receive so much love and support, guidance and concern
        for our well being.  We hope that we mirror back to you that same
        love  energy which is reaching our little planet.  Know that  you
        are  appreciated  and  that we too continue to  learn  about  the
        unconditional love of our Father.  Spirit will work through  each
        of us as long as we remain open and sincerely ask to be  channels
        of his love.
                      With Love in The Light, I Am Solinus

                     ( Subscription and Log-On Information )

             Back issues  of our  Bimonthly  Newsletter which are  avail-
        able  upon request for $5.00/copy contain much information  which
        is  still relevant and may provide some clarity on subjects  dis-
        cussed  in  subsequent  newsletters.  We are pleased  to  send  a
        complimentary copy of the newsletter to anyone you think will  be
        interested.   Love  donations (which should be  made  payable  to
        Judith A. Wells) are greatly appreciated and go to Spirit's  work
        to  create Heaven on Earth.  A subscription also entitles you  to
        log  on the SPIRIT Bulletin Board Service.  You may  access  this
        information  through  the HQ bulletin board or the  Nodes  listed
        below:

        East Coast HQ           Lady Cmdr. Laea           Cmdr. J.
        Spirit BBS              Spirit BBS                The Mother Ship
        Vilas, NC               Montgomery, AL            Holiday, FL
        1-704-297-5973          1-205-260-9687            1-813-938-1770
        24 hours, 7 days        7 PM to 7 AM

             For  a year's subscription (six bimonthly issues)  and  user
        status on SPIRIT BBS please send $30.00 check of money order made
        payable to:
                                 Judith A. Wells
                                Route 2, Box 309B
                                Vilas, NC  28692
                                  704/297-2342

-------- End of Article ---------------------------------------------------


Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Orvotron Newsletter SeptemberOctober part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 91 23:17:44 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 493
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2551 talk.religion.newage:7353





----- Orvotron Newsletter September\October part 2 ---------------------------



                          ( The Good Guys and The Bad )


             Many of the unaware upon realizing that there is life beyond
        Earth, will be extremely confused as to who is who.  In the event
        that  Earth's  governments do not ask for  or receive  help  from
        "the  good guys" it will appear to the unaware that they  are  in
        actuality "the bad guys".  In reality this would be Earth's  last
        hope  before  the total cleansing occurs to straighten  the  mess
        out.  Many here to help as emissaries of God's Eternal Light will
        be  falsely persecuted.  They are at the mercy of the  liars  who
        have  power here on Earth. This will continue as long  as  people
        give  their  power to these scoundrels.  One  day,  however,  the
        truth  will  prevail  and expose the deceivers.  Then  they  will
        quickly be removed from power and their deeds will be finally  in
        the open.  This will occur after a time of great confusion.

             There  is little truth  in  what  is  reported  through  the
        media.   Rather, it is primarily what those in power wish you  to
        believe.   Their  vested interest is in  total  world  domination
        without the slightest concern for how the outcome will effect the
        people.   Wake-up!  Wake-up!  Their trap is almost  sprung.   The
        unsuspecting victims have very little time or choices left.   The
        Forces  of Light stand ready once the people of Earth accept  our
        reality  and ask for our help.  Until then the Starseed  are  the
        emissaries  of Light here to show those who awaken  the  reality,
        the one hope left.

             Many  would like  specifics,  but those in power can  easily
        discredit  those  who know what's really going on.  That  is  the
        reason  we  hedge in disclosing all of what  we  are  monitoring.
        Many will need to experience some or part of the horrors we  know
        are  planned  before further information can be released  as  few
        will accept this knowledge.  Many still remain in total ignorance
        of  anything  going on, some are slightly aware  and  others  who
        sincerely want to know the truth are searching, constantly trying
        to piece the puzzle together.  The reference in the Bible to this
        is  something to the effect of,  "Those who will see,  will  see.
        Those  who will hear, will hear.  Those that won't, won't."   Not
        an exact quotation, but you should catch my drift.

             In just the things encountered here at Orvotron I can attest
        to the fact that many means are at the disposal of the  deceivers
        in  order  to monitor and try to undermine our efforts.   All  is
        fair in love and war seems to apply as their point of view.   War
        is the game they love and love is their eternal enemy.  We  would
        love  to  report many instances of love now  replacing  pain  and
        suffering.  We  know its presence will be felt soon  and  we  are
        proud to serve in this knowledge as it keeps our hearts,  bodies,
        souls and minds ever dedicated and firmly fixed in our service.


                            ( Our Structure of Love )

             Progress on the pyramid is slow but steady.  We are  putting
        the  finish siding on now thanks to all of those who continue  to
        support  this  project  with love  donations,  time  and  energy.
        August  was apparently a month for activation in terms  of  folks






        needing  to  touch  base here, as the second week  of  the  month
        arrived  and  so did 27 people.  It was a joyous  week,  full  of
        family reunion happenings, much public relations work, but little
        accomplished  on the pyramid.  People from as far away as  Massa-
        chusetts, New York, Florida, Colorado and California made appear-
        ances.   Some took up hammers and others delivered  crystals  for
        the  grid work from folks who were unable to make the trip  them-
        selves.  Many wonderful contacts resulted and we are heartened by
        the enthusiasm and interest that our combined efforts are produc-
        ing.

             Efforts to obtain the crystals that are needed for the power
        and  grounding rods are being thwarted.  Many attempts have  been
        made  by the forces that lurk just out of sight to stop  us  from
        getting  these and to stop us from completing this  structure  of
        love.   However, we remain undaunted, knowing that when the  time
        is absolutely perfect, the missing pieces will fall together.

             After  the  last newsletter was sent out I  had  an  illness
        which was brought to us by an unsuspecting visitor.  This was the
        same  virus  that attacked Solinus the month before and  we  were
        thankful it got us at different times so that one of us was  able
        to  attend to little star child Adel's constant needs  while  the
        other recouped in bed.  Solinus had the short end of the stick in
        this  situation  as Adel clings to her much more and was  not  as
        cooperative  about  leaving her alone.  Fortunately,  Solinus  is
        some  what  younger and in better physical shape than  I  so  she
        suffered less and got over it faster.  The illness put me out  of
        actual work on the pyramid for almost three weeks, then the rains
        came for another two weeks which slowed the project down  consid-
        erably.

             We did make some progress however and now the permanent apex
        sits atop the structure.  Getting it up there was an  interesting
        feat.  Randy, our live in finish carpenter, who masterminded  the
        intricate  building  of the bullet proof apex devised  a  Pyramid
        Crawler-Apex Hauler to get it up the steep side as it was too big
        to  go  through the inside of the building.  Basically it  was  a
        wagon complete with wooden wheels to which a rope was tied making
        it  possible to pull it up from the hole in the top of the  pyra-
        mid.   (See picture in center fold.)  When we had it  about  half
        way up the pyramid the board which the rope was attached to broke
        and the apex and Crawler-Hauler were suddenly swinging  sideways.
        All  our hearts missed a beat before we figured out how to  lower
        it back down to the ground.  After a quick fix was done the  apex
        was safely lifted to the top of the pyramid.  The next trick  was
        to manipulate it off the Crawler/Hauler where it was in an upside
        down position 25 feet above the ground.  We finally  accomplished
        this tight, balancing maneuver.  Randy's measurements proved per-
        fect  as it fit squarely on top of the hole.  This was  completed
        on the eve of the anniversary of  the Harmonic Convergence  which
        I insisted was the date that had to be met.

             Now  all three  door roof overhangs have  been built  (there
        is  no  door on the north side so we've built a  scaffold  there)
        which made putting the finish siding on possible as we have  been






        working  from  these roofs to make our short  ladders  reach  the
        highest  points.   As of this writing the west,  east  and  south
        walls  are  almost complete and the decks on the south  and  east
        sides are almost finished.

             We  would love to list all the names of those who are making
        this possible.  You know who you are and we have tried to keep up
        with  the  ever evolving list of contributors.  If you  have  not
        received  a  "proper" thank you from this end, please  know  your
        efforts are appreciated, and more than likely a letter will be in
        the  mail to you after this goes to print.  We love you  uncondi-
        tionally!!!!

                            ( Organizational Meeting )

             There will be a meeting here at Orvotron from September 21st
        through the 23rd for Earth based commanders and officers  associ-
        ated  with us.  We have not necessarily issued  personal  invita-
        tions as we are constantly in the process of making changes  that
        reflect  a chain of command based on doing not just  talking.  We
        suspect  many active souls will surface in response to  this  an-
        nouncement  and we look forward to learning of your progress  and
        how  it  can  be coordinated with our efforts.  If  you  are  not
        actually  involved beyond a personal level in bringing Heaven  to
        Earth, please do not plan to attend this meeting during the  Fall
        Equinox.   When the pyramid can host such activities we will  re-
        serve  another  time to share personal  evolution  strategy  with
        those who are struggling with that aspect of awakening.

             That  statement should set the tone for the upcoming gather-
        ing.   We are hopeful we will finally meet some of you  who  have
        declared  yourselves "involved" but to whom we have not  yet  im-
        parted  the many aspects of our headquarter's efforts.  It  is  a
        time  for more action on an organized level and that will be  the
        thrust of this encounter.  Please contact Solinus (Judi Wells) at
        the number listed at the end of this newsletter for details.   We
        apologize  for  not giving you more lead time to  make  plans  to
        attend,  but we feel most who are meant to be here at  that  time
        will find a way.

                                ( World Events )

             I have been cued  by what has been transpiring in the Soviet
        Union  lately  to  tell you what we  know  about  the  situation.
        Sometime  back  we  were told that area of the  world  was  being
        invaded by the Dracos.  Large mother ships have been seen landing
        all  over the USSR by many.  We were informed that  the  military
        was  being infiltrated by these beings and that at some  point  a
        take  over would be tried before the main forces arrive  via  the
        asteroid.  Apparently it was their intention to clone  duplicates
        of  the two leaders and then put them back as puppets when  order
        was  restored.  This would put a "dent" in the  world  unilateral
        secret plan to destroy this large object via nuclear missiles  in
        space once it was in range and an easy target.  As of this  writ-
        ing  it  has not been made known to us whether this  mission  was
        successful  or not.  We do know the USSR (along with the  govern-






        ment of the United States) have had treaties with the Grays for a
        long time which has given them ample opportunity to get into that
        country's culture, government and military.

             Awhile back  in California and  Alaska a  bunch of Grays who
        were  up to no good were found in the fault line areas trying  to
        cause the big earthquake everyone is anticipating in  California.
        However,  as these weak spots are being closely monitored by  the
        fleet,  the  Greys were detected and then flushed  out  into  the
        Pacific  Ocean where their wet little bodies were  retrieved  and
        then  removed to a planet in the far reaches of the  fringe  uni-
        verses.   It  is a place of safety, one from which they  can  not
        return to cause more trouble in the future.

             Many  encounters   take  place  as  the  Command  constantly
        patrols  Earth in their never ending surveillance and  monitoring
        with their scanners.  Even the scout ships have what is  commonly
        called  "dog  fights" with the Grays.  Some of  these  have  been
        witnessed  by some Earth beings but for the most part these  take
        place  over  less populated areas and are seldom  seen  from  the
        ground.   The  cosmic  traffic coming to,  leaving  and  circling
        around  Earth has increased to the point that if all  were  moni-
        tored from below, it would cause great panic in the world govern-
        ments.  Some of this increased activity has caused great  concern
        and  does not go undetected.  The Dracos and Grays are  preparing
        for a big offensive stand.

             There are thirty  different  kinds  of  Grays  only a few of
        which  are the ones publicized as doing the abductions and  other
        sinister  exploits.  The others work within the Divine  Plan  and
        wish  no harm to life on Earth or anywhere else.  To have  a  few
        cast a dark shadow on the rest is very disheartening to those  in
        the  Father's  service.  There are also good Reptilians  who  are
        involved in the immense task at hand before the next expansion of
        the universes.

              Those doing  UFO  investigations around  the world feel the
        good  guys are just talking with them and doing little  else.  To
        set  the  record straight here, there is a  tremendous  array  of
        things  now being done on Earth to help but these things for  the
        most  part are over shadowed by the sensational news  of  violent
        nature  the  media  likes to report.  All  these  scenarios  have
        caused great confusion to those on Earth trying to make heads  or
        tails  out  of the mounting information about who's  really  who.
        It's doubtful even Jesus would last as long in this world of fear
        as  he  did when last here bringing in the Creator's  message  of
        love.  To  return  to such a massive build up of  the  forces  of
        deceit  with anything less than a great force would  be  foolish.
        Sananda  now  has  that force at his disposal; one  that  is  big
        enough  to get the job done of cleaning up the cause of  all  the
        suffering  and  pain  present here on Earth and  to  restore  the
        planet to one of peace, love and harmony.

            You might  ask  what are  they waiting for?  They are waiting
        for the total break down of universal law on Earth as that  event
        will  allow their immediate entry to put things  right.   Another






        delay, is due to the fact that the Father's energy is rising ever
        higher so that more may awaken by experiencing these times.  And,
        as  stated  previously, the Hierarchy is not being asked  by  the
        people  of Earth to intervene.  However, it is felt that as  more
        become  aware of the presence of good over evil and see  what  is
        really going on this will eventually change.

             Those  with  computer link  up  on  Spirit  BBS   will  find
        files in the Political Arena about the new policies now effecting
        personal freedoms which were recently handed down by Congress and
        the Supreme Court.

             So there  you  have  some additional insights into the world
        scene  for what it's worth.  Read between the lines  and  combine
        this information with what you get from your guides and you  will
        understand  more.  We will continue to inform you  about  matters
        that may not appear in your news media even though they are  just
        as sensational.  These truths are being carefully hidden from the
        average  citizen and will remain so until the trap is  sprung  or
        the cleansing happens, which ever comes first.

                          ( Vortex Doors and Visitors )

             We are having  some  new interdimensional happenings here at
        Orvotron.  Some of the psychics who are in touch with us reported
        that there was activity directed at the pyramid by the Grays  and
        Dracos of which we were already aware.  One  psychic also said  a
        base  was  being built sixty eight miles in some  direction  from
        here for purposes of a possible take over of the mountain  vortex
        and  the  pyramid.   With this information I  then  consulted  my
        guides  who  stated that we had been shown the  location  several
        years ago from an overlook in Boone.  If what we saw is a base it
        is actually located six point eight miles southwest of the  moun-
        tain  (as the crow flies).  I had often wondered why we were  led
        to  that overlook and shown that construction site.  A  base  was
        one  theory  I have held as it was a good scenario in  the  other
        facts known about this area then and now.

             We  now  have  at  least two lower dimensional entities  who
        give  nightly  visitations to whom ever spends the night  in  the
        cottage.    Randy has been particularly aware of these beings  as
        he has chosen this area as his private get away spot.   We  don't
        fear these entities even though their presence is annoying and we
        are actually learning much from them.   Many people who have been
        here have heard the heavy breathing, purring or growling of these
        entities and Randy says they have even taken to slamming doors to
        make their presence known.  No telepathic communication seems  to
        have an effect on them, but the mantra "Kodoish, Kodoish, Kodoish
        Adonai  'Tsebayoth/Sabayoth" is effective temporarily.   (Thank's
        for  that suggestion Talligai!)  It's been  a real plus to  allow
        others  to experience this encounter as it helps to arrest  fears
        some may have in relation to unseen visitors. Not giving over  to
        fear or allowing them control is the key here to handling them.

             Lady   Commander   Thena  and  Commanders Avalon   and  Zeno
        experienced  a  visitation and it changed their thinking  into  a






        more expanded macro idea of dimensional doorways.  Thena verified
        that  they were Reptilian in nature.  The entities appear  to  be
        harmless and respond to protective mantras or assertive  commands
        to hit the road.  We know what they are and realize other  dimen-
        sions  are  within the same time/space continuum.  As  we  become
        ever  less  dense in rising energy more of this will occur  on  a
        world  wide  basis.  Many will soon see things  differently  from
        what  they  have previously experienced, and that no  such  event
        should be encountered with fear in your hearts.

                                ( Earth Changes )

             We still  hold  fast  to  the news  of the devalued currency
        to  come out perhaps as early as the end of September.   We  have
        noticed  that  our personal bank is  watching  transactions  more
        closely  than ever before even though we have a  flawless  record
        with them.

             Watch out for storms as we continue in the hurricane season,
        especially on the east coast.  Heavy sun spot activity may result
        in  and can produce severe shifts due to the effects of  magnetic
        storms  hitting the planet.  Expect more volcanic and some  under
        sea  activity that could cause tidal waves.  All  Earth  activity
        could increase.  It's now in the hands of the old girl we live on
        and the effects of rising energy.

             September and  October will be big months for confusion  and
        we expect many will experience and live out a lot of their fears.
        This  is not necessarily a negative statement as it is  important
        to  remember  that confronting fears is a  positive  step  toward
        living a life devoid of fear.  Only through releasing our attach-
        ments  to our insecurities and limitations can we live  in  total
        harmony, love and abundance.
                                 Peace and Love,
                                    Kortron


                                  ( Sanctuary )

             Life on the  home  front  has  been  pretty much business as
        usual  these past two months.  My main summer focus, the  garden,
        has  about ended and all that remains to be brought in are a  few
        cool weather crops and winter squash.  Everything grew exception-
        ally well this year except our tomatoes which got blossom end rot
        in  early  August when the rain kept coming down,  but  I  really
        wasn't  too  enthusiastic about canning tomatoes from  75  plants
        anyway.

             My main  impression now that autumn is almost here is, where
        did the summer go?  As I look back it was a whirlwind of activity
        and I am amazed at the things that were accomplished.  The  pyra-
        mid  is  almost "dried in" and looks and feels  more  magnificent
        each day.  Some may wonder why it has taken so long to reach this
        point, but considering that it has been built primarily by  three
        men with no blueprints I'd say they've done a wonderful job.







             We've  had an influx of folks from around the world as  news
        of the pyramid and the network spreads and we are cheered that so
        many  are  listening to Spirit and finding ways to  change  their
        lives  in  order to be more effective in the Mission.   Two  such
        people  are Omshati and Jhatraia who have now left Maine and  are
        headed  to Orvotron.  I've not gotten "the scoop" on  what  tran-
        spired  to  cause them to move this direction, but  we  all  know
        Spirit  has something in store for us and we eagerly wait to  see
        what develops.  The new Northeast Sector Commander is Karleen  M.
        O'Connor,  P.  O. Box 52, Bowdoinham, ME   04008  (207/737-2941).
        She is very interested in hooking up to SPIRIT, BBS, but has only
        a  small computer which is not completely adequate for that  pur-
        pose.   Anyone  wishing  to help her locate and pay  for  an  IBM
        compatible computer/modem setup please contact her immediately.

             Lady Cmdr.  Laea,  formerly of Montgomery, Alabama, recently
        moved  with her family to Nashville, Tennessee.  Her new  address
        is  217 Paragon Mills Road, Nashville, TN   37211  (615/781-2033)
        and  please  note the new phone number for  her  SPIRIT  Bulletin
        Board  Service at the end of the newsletter.  She is  anxious  to
        get settled in and begin networking that area so those of you  in
        the "Deep South" still have a sector commander, she's just  relo-
        cated.

             Solara of Star-Borne  Unlimited has moved  her office out of
        her  home and is setting up a shop\bookstore in beautiful,  down-
        town  Charlottesville.  Her new mailing address is  2005  Common-
        wealth  Dr.,  Charlottesville,  VA   22901  (804/293-1111).   Her
        latest  newsletter was full of many happy reunions  and  expecta-
        tions  for  others, but she addresses the same  problem  we  keep
        voicing,  that  of the few pulling the load of the many.   As  we
        begin  to direct our networking beyond the east coast  and  focus
        our  attention  on world-wide consciousness raising  we  identify
        with her struggle to keep things coordinated.  Her new book which
        is Part One of the 11:11 Trilogy, EL*AN*RA, The Healing of Orion,
        is now out.  I have started reading it and as usual Solara  keeps
        me  roaring with laughter and alternately hanging on the edge  of
        my  seat. The heroine gets mixed up with the Trons  (poor  dear!)
        and various other entities.  It is exciting reading and has  many
        undercurrents which will surprise you.

             Rosemary Southwell of  Camps Bay,  Cape Town,  South  Africa
        asked  us  to spread the word about focusing our love  on  Remem-
        brance  Sunday and Armistice Day, Nov. 10th & 11th,  1991.   This
        will help prepare the energies for Solara when she leads a  group
        to Egypt to open the gateway on January 11, 1992.  We are pleased
        that  so much attention is being given to these kinds  of  events
        around our planet and we are glad to network the information.

             You may have noticed  the new logo  on the first page of the
        newsletter.  For some time now we have been considering  changing
        the focus from one solely on the Ashtar Command since Kortron  is
        a Metatron Commander.  This is not to exclude Ashtar, but  rather
        to be more inclusive of the larger family of which we are a part.
        This  design appears in stained glass on the western side of  the
        pyramid  and  symbolizes  the Solar Cross  surrounded  by  twelve






        differently  colored pyramids which represents the twelve  dimen-
        sions forever One with the Creator.
                      With Love in the Light, I am Solinus

                     ( Subscription and Log-On Information )

             We  are pleased to send a "Love Copy" of the  newsletter  to
        anyone  you  think will be interested.  Just pass  your  friend's
        name and address on to us and we will mail out the current  issue
        compliments  of you.  Back issues are available upon request  for
        $5.00/copy.   They contain much information which is still  rele-
        vant and may provide some clarity on subjects discussed in subse-
        quent newsletters.  Love donations (which should be made  payable
        to  Judith A. Wells) are greatly appreciated and go  to  Spirit's
        work  to create Heaven on Earth.

             A subscription also entitles you to log on the SPIRIT Bulle-
        tin  Board Service, a computer/modem system with files on  alter-
        nate  energy, UFO/extraterrestrial happenings, political,  scien-
        tific  and  medical  information and much more.   The  files  are
        updated frequently and we encourage you to use and contribute  to
        this "library at your fingertips".  You may access this  informa-
        tion through the HQ bulletin board or the Nodes listed below:

        East Coast HQ            Lady Cmdr. Laea          Cmdr. J.
        Spirit, BBS              Spirit, BBS              The Mother Ship
        Vilas, NC                Nashville, TN            Holiday, FL
        1-704-297-5973           1-615-781-2118           1-813-938-1770
        24 hours, 7 days         7 AM to 7 PM

             For  a year's subscription (six bimonthly issues)  and  user
        status on SPIRIT BBS please send $30.00 check or money order made
        payable to:

                                 Judith A. Wells
                                Route 2, Box 309B
                                Vilas, NC  28692
                                  704/297-2342

------- End of Article -------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 14:30:12 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 14


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David Jones) writes...
>

I'd like to hear more, Dave.

Thank you.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 14:36:36 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 15


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Richard Pfand) writes...
>We are descended from reptiles!! A long time ago native american indians

It might not be so bad to be decended from reptiles though, Richard.

Reptiles have some very endearing qualities, you know.  T


---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!bcm!DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU!skywalker
From: [e-mail] (Timothy B. Reynolds)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: FOX show : UFO Reports:Sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 14:42:09 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
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Nntp-Posting-Host: dino.qci.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu


After viewing the show aired on Friday night I have a request.
All in all nothing new as far as new film footage but had some good
interviews. I thought the Belgian pilots had some interesting stuff.

The one new film (that I hadn't seen) was the Las Vegas one. After
watching it about 75 times over the weekend I have come to the point
that there could be a explaintion for this one. After viewing the loops
and circles the objects were making it remided me of the kites with
dual controls. For the UFO's to be 'real' someone with better equipment
needs to try and get some kind of sort of distance on the objects, if they
can be placed in the foreground my guess is they are kites if they are
in the distance then I think we have a very good piece of film here....

Luke
--
Disclaimer: My opinions are my own, not HHMI's or Baylor College of Medicine
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And we stand and watch the gods and idols fall, as the blameless ones go
 blindfold to the wall"                                  Robin Trower....
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling and UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 15:15:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
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In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 19 Oct 91 15:48:04 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> But there seem to be some incongruities in what you're saying.  First of
> all, for such highly developed creatures, why *wouldn't* they "...waste
> their time..."?  Hmmm.  If this is true, then for such highly evolved
> spiritual animals, they don't seem to deal with time too well.  My
> personal conception is that Cosmic Beings would not have to worry about
> that sort of thing.

    Not only that, if they didn't want to waste their time you would think
they might have thought it over BEFORE they crossed thousands of light years
of space. Kind of pointless to travel all that distance and then not want to
waste your time getting your message across in a consistent and clear manner.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 15:26:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
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Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gordon Fitch) writes:
                              [...]
>To hell with California.  I want to see a prediction where Iowa
>falls into the sea.
>--
>* Gordon Fitch | [e-mail] | uunet!cmcl2.nyu.edu!panix!mydog!gcf *

I once read a strange new-age oriented book called "The Earthquake Generation"
that predicted that the entire Western coast of the USA, all the way to Salt
Lake City was going to get hit with an earthquake and drop below sea-level.
They even had this map of the predicted coastline.  It looked like some huge
monster bit the continent in half.

This prediction was made after the author interviewed a number of "psychics."
The earthquake stopped short of Iowa, but just barely.  ;^)
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__
  Warren   v\ *|
             V
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From: [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro
Subject: Re:  Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 18:55:05 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>
>>>  ***************************************************************************
>>> *  COMING NEXT:  My discussions with Wendelle Stevens regarding Grey        *
>>> *         aliens from the Reticulum Star cluster and his playing of a       *
>>> *         cassette tape of the sounds of one of their space ships.           *
>>>  ***************************************************************************
>>
>>This quote makes it sound like the poster is pulling our collective legs.
>
>The grey aliens from Zeta Reticuli are a common subject in UFOlogical
>circles (yes, even some of the serious ones.)  Wendelle Stevens is also a
>common (and controversial) subject.  I don't know anything about this
>alleged tape recording though, so I can't comment on that part.

    Hmmm. Zeta Reticuli is a pair of stars (Z1 is a G2 and Z2 is a G1
both main sequence) about 37 ly away, *and* by an odd coincidence, it is
one of the few star systems mentioned by name in current popular entertainment:
ZR is the system the movies Alien and Aliens were set in. Does the use of
Zeti Reticuli in UFO lit predate Alien?

                                James Nicoll
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!news!noc.near.net!mv!ctedge!djk
From: [e-mail] (SYSTEM 0PERATOR)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Since we are discussing sightings..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 91 16:38:03 GMT
Organization: NMS&Systems Engineering, Nashua, NH
Lines: 44

Hi: I enjoy reading the sighting reports here.. Interesting and a LOT
more economical then the paranormal sections of the CI$ 'issues' and
current affairs forum.

My little incident goes back to 1973 on a partially cloudy saturday
afternoon at about 3:00 pm in Monterey Park California. I was 18 and
at that time, your scholarly reclusive type. (I was the only anglo
in a predominately hispanic and oriental area).

I was walking east on Garvey blvd on a small rise in the road just a
few hundred yards east of Atlantic ave. (this is a very busy and
populated business district BTW!) and noticed some movement up in
the sky between some banks of clouds. I looked up and saw right up
there in plain view a VERY large elongated saucer shape with a dark
metallic color and various surface features that suggested windows
or other openings into the shape. It was I estimate 3-4 thousand
feet up, and as large as a pack of cigarettes held at arms length!

This object was moving from the southeast to the northwest, and was
in view for almost 5 seconds before it passed behind clouds and out
of view. The area of space that it traversed was at least five or
six times the length of the craft, and it was much much faster then
the clouds surrounding it. I DID notice a shadow cast on the clouds
both while the object was in view and after it moved out of view
behind other clouds.

My reaction? I got that tingling awe feeling one gets the first time
they see a movie like star wars, and that was about it. I continued
on my way home, (keeping closer watch on the skies!) and calmly told
my parents that I had just seen a real UFO on my way to my room. (I
knew the reaction THAT would probably get!).

My own conclusions are that it was no blimp (totally silent) it could
in no way have been a balloon as it was just moving far to fast AND
traveling against the winds that were driving the clouds. And if it
was 'swamp gas' or something like that, I want some! If it was some
kind of hallucination, I'd like some more of those too!

-djk

---
Daniel J. Karnes / WA6NDT - POB 7007, Nashua NH USA 03060-7007
[e-mail]  ...!DecVax!Mv!CtEdge!Djk  [e-mail]
The Cutting Edge: [phone] V.32 24 hrs. 'for TRUE hackers'
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!unixhub!slacvm!doctorj
From: [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 20:49:04 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2559 sci.skeptic:16632

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:

  (...much stuff about visitors from Venus deleted...)

> When they checked the radiation coming from our sun it was found  that
> lambda radiation wasn t being filtered out by our covering around the Earth.
> This was corrected in l970 and it will take 60 years to get over this. The
> Earth has been accumulating this radiation in our soil and other things for
> millions of years.  By the turn of the century it should be much better
> although we may have to go though some rough times coming out of our present
> cycle until 2030.

Please enlighten me.  What is lambda radiation?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!linus!linus!mwvm.mitre.org!M22565
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Fox's UFO Program
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 19:12:52 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102
Lines: 9
Nntp-Posting-Host: mwvm.mitre.org

I watched the UFO report on FOX Friday night. The impression I got was that
the researchers turned this group into a TV show! All the recent threads
(except the *real* far out ones :*) were well presented. Very impressive.

Any comments on the implant removed from that guy? It looked like a large
piece of beach-glass to me.


-Eric
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!Neon.Stanford.EDU!amorgan
From: [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 21:03:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:
>
>  (...much stuff about visitors from Venus deleted...)
>
>> When they checked the radiation coming from our sun it was found  that
>> lambda radiation wasn t being filtered out by our covering around the Earth.
>> This was corrected in l970 and it will take 60 years to get over this. The
>> Earth has been accumulating this radiation in our soil and other things for
>> millions of years.  By the turn of the century it should be much better
>> although we may have to go though some rough times coming out of our present
>> cycle until 2030.
>
>Please enlighten me.  What is lambda radiation?

It is sub-EM radiation of 3 polarizations which consists of prime wavelengths
in the range of 1.0x10^3 to 5.6x10^4 micro forts (named after Charles Fort)
which coincidentally is the same as the ratio of the top angle of the Great
Pyramid (in gradians) divided by the size of the base stone (in microns).  The
wavelengths react directly with your psychic center (except for people who
live within 5 degrees of the equator.  There is a theory that the atmosphere
near the equator contains extra kappa particles which of course block lambda
radiation.  More study is clearly indicated) to produce kharmic discord.
Quartz crystals seem to have little effect on dispersing the lambda waves,
in fact their matrix structure seems to reinforce rather than disrupt the
waves due to sub-quantum properties involving meson-muon interaction.
The only thing that seems to stop lambda radiation is to place a fish on
your head (carp seems to work best but trout will do in an emergency), walk
backwards, and shout "Oopie, oopie, ooh.  Wozzle ar goo".   This is not a
popular approach and research is underway to find alternative methods.

An alternate theory says that it is all a crock of shit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions above are not mine.  I stole them all from the person sitting next
to me.  If you don't like them, I can get you his address and you can kill him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan "Long live the Goon Show" Morgan | "You rotton swine, you!" - Bluebottle
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Watch out!  This gun is loaded and so am I." - Major Denis Bloodnok

    EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo!  EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!nsisrv!gemini!dsc
From: [e-mail] (Doug S. Caprette Bldg. 28 W191 x3892)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro
Subject: Re:  Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 20:30:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: NASA GSFC CDP VLBI
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>
>    Hmmm. Zeta Reticuli is a pair of stars (Z1 is a G2 and Z2 is a G1
>both main sequence) about 37 ly away, *and* by an odd coincidence, it is
>one of the few star systems mentioned by name in current popular entertainment:
>ZR is the system the movies Alien and Aliens were set in. Does the use of
>Zeti Reticuli in UFO lit predate Alien?
>
Yes, I rather thought that it's use in Alien was inspired by the Betty and
Barney Hill story.
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From: [e-mail] (Mike Dobbs)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Subject: National Geographic special on Crop Circles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 17:47:52 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA
Lines: 10


The National Geographic Society will present a special on the crop
circle phenomenon on November 24 at 9pm EST/6pm PST on the cable
network TBS or WTBS.  The NGS did considerable filming of the crop
circles this past summer.  Those of you who subscribe to National
Geographic magazine will find that they are advertising this show
on the slip cover for the issue that was sent out last week.

--------
  Mike Dobbs        /    Internet: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kathy and Channeling UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 03:30:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>
>
> I enjoy reading Kathy's postings... if you don't.. then why do you?
> Surely there are other areas of interest to you.. areas that have logic
> and proof as a base.  Why are you here in alien visitors if you consider
> the unproven to be frivilous?  You seem to be here only to discredit the
> others.  But why would you have such a mission?  Why do you care what
> Kathy thinks?
>
> ---
> Mary Stanley
> ---


I agree with some of these points but..

The unproven *should* be proven with logic and proof as a base rather than
ignored, otherwise this newsgroup will achieve nothing but a new "religion"
with faith as its basis.

On a different(?) note I have not yet seen any discussion on the only proven
aliens, that is where WE visit other worlds. Could we now be sewing the seeds
of a new race on another planet? Should we?
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From: [e-mail] (Eric Rescorla)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 21:52:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: Rescorla for himself.
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog) writes:
>
>It is sub-EM radiation of 3 polarizations which consists of prime wavelengths
>in the range of 1.0x10^3 to 5.6x10^4 micro forts (named after Charles Fort)
What the fuck is a fort?
How about in wavenumbers like normal human beings.

Yes, I know you're joking(at least I hope so.)
But I'd still like to see the answer.
-Ekr



--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431, Honda CM400 rider           [e-mail]
Yale University Department of Chemistry             [e-mail]
"No his mind is not for rent--to any God or government." Peart/Dubois
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rutgers!noao!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the pleiladien transcripts
Message-ID: <1991Oct21.131904.433@anasaz>
Date: 21 Oct 91 13:19:04 GMT
References: <dt4.687824237@pear> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
]>Gee, I thought you would never ask. :-)  The Pleiadians are a group of entities
]>who are being channeled through a lady named Barbra. Marciniak.  They have
]>been coming through for over three years. Their talks are available on cassette
]>tapes (over 100).  A friend of mine took the time to transcribe two evenings
]>that the Pleiadians gave last year at Stanford Univ. called the Harmonics of
]>Frequency response and the Human DNA. I got ahold of a copy and scanned it into
]>my computer. It is six files of about 30,000 bytes each and a seventh file that
]>includes a list of tapes.  I have been sending the transcripts to those that

]>request them by email. Over 120 net folks have asked for and received the
]>transcripts by email.  BTW that should be enough to start our own group.
]>Although seriously I am considering starting a Family of Light list where
]>we could share all this great stuff without the dimly lit dumping on it.
]>Anyway the offer is still open.  Send me your email request and I will
]>email you the transcripts.  Don Showen, Light Head
]>Oh, BTW I am also very into Billie Meier, I have two of the contact notes books
]>scanned into the computer with permission from Wendelle Stevens to post stuff
]>from the books, I have been pleading with this group for two years to ask about
]>stuff I could quote from the contact notes, with no takers.  Hmmm. Maybe I will
]>just start posting my favorite conversations between Billie and Samjese. How
]>about the trip they took all over the universe?
]>Don Showen

How about the trip back in time she took him on?  You know, to San Francisco
in 1906. He took some pictures there didn't he?  I bet there are lots of
people who would be interested in that - I know I would.

--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 23:28:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Kellan:
>Let me put it to you this way:  a message on the radio is not
>the same thing as light/energy/radiation transmission.  Have

Are you saying that radio waves aren't energy or radiation?  Or are you
saying that light isn't a form of electromagnetic radiation?

By the way, what else do you do at AT&T?
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!samsung!balrog!smith
From: [e-mail] (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Discoveries?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 91 20:26:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Cabletron Systems Inc.  Rochester, NH
Lines: 55
Nntp-Posting-Host: glinda

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) writes:
>In [e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Coffman) writes:
>>With Columbus' aniversary of discovering the new world looming,
>
>I know alot of people will probably think I'm being picky, but oh well.
>
>The only thing that Columbus "discovered" was that he screwed up on
>his way to India.  That and how easy it is submit an entire society
>to slavery, pillaging and genocide when you're a brutal liar and that
>society is unprepared for an invasion.
>
>Sorry for the vitriol, people, but I'm Apache (mostly), and this
>"celebration" of 500 years of the rape, torture, robbery, deceit,
>relocation, annihiliation, etc. of the first inhabitants of this land
>(not to mention the land itself) is insulting and crude.  Don't
>intelligent people recognize that?

I'm Irish, but I sympathize with your point of view anyway.  Columbus was a
*European* hero, his "discovery" is from a European point of view.  This is the
way it was taught in this (European-oriented) country for years.

Let me give you a nickels worth of free advice: the problem is not the
intelligence of the people, it is with the sanitised Columbus that remains
a fundamental part of the national psyche.  Don't make the mistake of
assuming that, simply because someone says "Columbus discovered America"
that they are necessarily supporting everything that informed people now
*know* Columbus was responsible for.  They are not.  *Never* ascribe to
vindictiveness what can be explained by simple ignorance.

Columbus was a hero for five hundred years.  He is badly tarnished now, and
probably will take his legitimate place in history soon, but you must
understand that it takes *time* to get the word out.

Place your emphasis on *education*, and don't bother to target Columbus
especially.  The problem here is that most people don't know *beans* about
history, and that needs to be fixed.

I loved history.  I still do.  But my young, romantic view of it was smashed
utterly when I discovered - through *independent* reading, mind you - that
it was he who brought a thousand years worth of highly evolved European
disease organisms to a population that had never been exposed to them, that it
was he who denigrated their religion and demanded they accept his own, etc
etc, etc.  But I am unusual, I was willing to go and *read*, and to accept
the various accounts - some of them contradictory, for history is never clean
and neat - and figure out for myself what sort of picture was there.

I say, let the facts speak for themselves.  Columbus can be seen for what he
is quite easily in that light.


--
Larry Smith
[e-mail]
The usual disclaimer stuff...
Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.  -- Barry Goldwater
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kathy and Channeling UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 23:41:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>On a different(?) note I have not yet seen any discussion on the only proven
>aliens, that is where WE visit other worlds. Could we now be sewing the seeds
>of a new race on another planet? Should we?

NASA, at least, is careful to sterilize its spacecraft before
launching.  If nothing else, this eliminates one failure mode of the
spacecraft (eg. mold growing on insulation).  At least once the
sterilization wasn't complete.  Part of one of the Surveyor lunar
landers was recovered by an Apollo mission.  A bacterium was later
found on the part, apparently it had escaped being killed, and had
survived intact (if not alive) on the moon for several years.

The moon is a pretty nasty place, only specially engineered organisms
might be able to exist there, but Mars is a possible place for
accidental contamination.  It's not much worse that Antarctica, aside
from the very low atmospheric pressure.  If we go to Mars, we will
inevitably contaminate it with our microorganisms.  I don't know how
long they would survive unprotected, however.

I'll try to dig out references.
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!gatech!mcnc!stanford.edu!CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!Neon.Stanford.EDU!amorgan
From: [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 23:33:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University, Ca , USA
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2570 sci.skeptic:16650

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog) writes:
>>
>>It is sub-EM radiation of 3 polarizations which consists of prime wavelengths
>>in the range of 1.0x10^3 to 5.6x10^4 micro forts (named after Charles Fort)
>What the fuck is a fort?
>How about in wavenumbers like normal human beings.

But fort's aren't wavelengths the way you understand it.  I am so advanced
that I can comprehend 14th dimensional self-dispersing, retro-feedback waves
but I doubt I could explain them to a lesser (i.e. human) intelligence.
By sub-EM I mean in a lower manifold rather than shorter wavelength.  To
even begin to get it you should consult any good textbook in Quantum Mechanics,
Tensor Algebra, Non-standard number theory, String Theory, and Trans-Cantoran
Set notation.

>Yes, I know you're joking(at least I hope so.)

Joking??? Never.  When the Zontargs come and turn you into sausages you won't
be laughing then.

>But I'd still like to see the answer.
>-Ekr
>

    A higher being.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!herald.usask.ca!alberta!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fox's UFO Program
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 22:50:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> I watched the UFO report on FOX Friday night. The impression I got was that
|> the researchers turned this group into a TV show! All the recent threads
|> (except the *real* far out ones :*) were well presented. Very impressive.
|>
|> Any comments on the implant removed from that guy? It looked like a large
|> piece of beach-glass to me.
...
|> -Eric


I thought the same thing about the "implant".

Does anyone know if a shard of glass would become worn and rounded
smooth after a 'n' years in a human body?


--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail] |       \\?!//         | t                    |
***********************************************************************
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From: [e-mail] (Stuart Rubio)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 02:41:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: ^
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Originator: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: hpwisf1.isf.unisys.com

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano) writes:
>I remember reading about the reptilian brain stem in my health class, but I
>think it's just based on the similarities of our brain with that of a reptiles
>keyword here is 'similar' (sp?)

Actually, there are a lot more clues involved in the infrastructure of the
brain than just similarities as you refereence them. There are quite different
structures built into the larger parts of the brain that are declared to be
later developments. There are also more involved changes, over all, within
the internal structure of even the brain stem, compared to the reptilian
brain.

Peace and long life,

Stuart
.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!tigger!schiffd
From: [e-mail] (David M. Schiff)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fox's UFO Program
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 04:39:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Leonard Spani) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>|> I watched the UFO report on FOX Friday night. The impression I got was that
>|> the researchers turned this group into a TV show! All the recent threads
>|> (except the *real* far out ones :*) were well presented. Very impressive.
>|>
>|> Any comments on the implant removed from that guy? It looked like a large
>|> piece of beach-glass to me.
>...
>|> -Eric
>
>
>I thought the same thing about the "implant".
>
>Does anyone know if a shard of glass would become worn and rounded
>smooth after a 'n' years in a human body?
>
It seems to me  the obvious thing to do would be to analyze it.
It could be checked for any signs of radiation or any strange properties.
Perhaps a chemical anaysis could also be done. It strikes me as odd
that someone who believes they might have an implant would not do
these things to see if that's what it is -- rather than an old piece
of glass! (Since the program didn't mention anything about an analysis,
I'm assuming nothing was done.) Very Strange.

Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Gulf Breeze And Cia/dod Plots
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 17:18:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>
>I heard a very interesting theory from a qualified opponent of the Gulf Breeze
>photos.  The theory is that someone in the distance was holding the model on a
>large stick, broom handle, etc., while Ed made the video from behind the bush.
>According to this person, who has viewed the entire video, the street lamp
>which is in the school yard, blinks out at the precise moment that the UFO
>passes over it, indicating a support structure holding the UFO up.  The
>problem with the video is that we never get to see enough of it on the
>television programs that show this occurrance.

The big problem with the model-on-a-stick theory seems to be, why isn't
there a break in the glowing blue ring on the bottom of the object?

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!ldoering
From: [e-mail] (Laurence Doering)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 06:36:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>>Kellan:
>>Let me put it to you this way:  a message on the radio is not
>>the same thing as light/energy/radiation transmission.  Have
>
>Are you saying that radio waves aren't energy or radiation?  Or are you
>saying that light isn't a form of electromagnetic radiation?
>
>By the way, what else do you do at AT&T?

Oh, stop being so rational, Anthony.  You're creating a Negative Belief
Field (tm) that's making it difficult for me to unquestioningly accept
everything everybody says in this newsgroup.  All I can say is, when
the Ascended Ones come, you'll be sorry.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION v2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 03:48:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 41

> Condensed version of an article that appeared in the Sydney SUN-HERALD
> on page 25, October 13, 1991:
>
>                        E V O L U T I O N
>
>           US Study fuels Aust scientist's 10-year feud
>
> An Australian scientist's research is at the centre of a debate which may erode
> part of Darwin's theory of evolution. Stephen Skinner reports.
>
> New research has raised questions marks over one of the most basic tenets of
> modern science - Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. Britains's NEW SCIENTIST
> magazine has reported a new study by Prof Neville Symonds of Sussex University
> on bacteria which raises the possibility that 18th Century French naturalist
> Chevalier de Lamarck was at least partly right when he postulated that animals
> can pass on characteristics acquired in thier lifetime to their offspring
> (the Giraffe's neck being an example).
>
> The current orthodoxy holds that the environment selects the chance mutations
> that best suit it, but it cannot direct mutations. In 1988 Dr. John Cairns, a
> geneticist at Harvard University published a study showing that some genetic
> mutations in bacteria seemed to be a calculated response to environmental
> pressure rather than purely random events. Other studies including those from
> a team at Rochester Uni,(N.Y,) have lent weight to these findings. "Biologists
> are slowly coming around to the idea that in certain cercumstances bacteria may
> mutate in an apparently directed fashion".
>
> Reverse Transcriptase is the enzyme involved in the long-held theory that a
> mutated RNA can copy information back to the DNA. The new research has fuelled
> a decade-old feudbetween the British establishment and an Australian biologist,
> Dr. Ted Steele of Wollongong Uni. He & a colleague caused a sensation 10 years
> ago by finding that mice with arthritically-altered immune systems could pass on
> some of that altered immunity to their offspring - natural selection appeared to
> have speeded up. Dr. Steele suggested the most likely mechanism was reverse
> transcriptase. Dr. Cairns later suggested the same. Benefecial responses to
> disease, changed diets and toxic environments may be passed on to succeeding
> generations. Harmful responses could also be passed on. These studies don't
> overturn traditional (evolutionary) theory, they add to it.
>
>
>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: <None>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 04:07:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3451 alt.alien.visitors:2577 sci.skeptic:16658 talk.religion.newage:7362

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:
>
> You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.
> The arguments against them (Post-Darwin) are *very* strong
> indeed. In my opinion even strong enough to totally dismissing them as
> an attempt to replace religion with science.
>
> I do not claim to be an expert in this field (because I am not), but
> you should try to do some research on your own. I think you would
> be very surprised of what you find - or rather of all the questions
> you find.
>
> Erik F. Andersen, Denmark

REALLY?

Compare these comments to the article I posted, titled EVOLUTION v2 !!!

BTW how do you know the arguments against Post-Darwinism are very strong indeed
if you are not an expert in the field ???
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!grivel!gara!dhaley
From: [e-mail] (dhaley)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 06:07:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: University of New England, Armidale, Australia
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16659 alt.paranormal:3452 alt.alien.visitors:2578 talk.religion.newage:7363

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jacques Guy) writes:
>>The arguments against them (Post-Darwin) are *very* strong
>>indeed. In my opinion even strong enough to totally dismissing them as
>>an attempt to replace religion with science.
>
>What arguments? The only argument I ever see is "the bible says so" sorry this
>doesn't cut it. I can't believe that we are arguing about mythology vs.
>science on a network that would not exist if it were not for science. What has
>mythology achieved (other than death and destruction).

 I have seen a few of these arguments put out by religous organisations claiming
To scientifically disprove evolution. They mostly follow the lines that because
something dealing with evolution has since been proved to be untrue, then the
whole concept of evolution must also be untrue. The ones I have so far read are
properganderish. What has this to do with alt.alien.visitors? I must have missed
a few posts?

I think I'll borrow this disclaimer...

>Disclaimer: Opinions are based on logic rather than biblical "fact".
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!ipso!runxtsa!jason
From: [e-mail] (Jason Haines)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 91 09:47:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: RUNX Un*x Timeshare.  Sydney, Australia.
Lines: 32
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16660 alt.paranormal:3453 alt.alien.visitors:2579 talk.religion.newage:7364

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>What arguments? The only argument I ever see is "the bible says so" sorry this
>doesn't cut it. I can't believe that we are arguing about mythology vs.
>science on a network that would not exist if it were not for science. What has
>mythology achieved (other than death and destruction).

Hey Larry, I think science has done more for death and destruction than
mythology, all the weapons of the last six thousand years are the product of
scientific procedures - plenty have been killed by slings, catapults, woomeras,
arrows, boiling oil, bullets, thermonuclear warheads, propane bombs - all
tested in the field... but originated in the laboratory of the mind.

Maybe gravity lenses and dark matter seem a little like 'science fantasy',
but the human race could be obliterated by the application of these ideas
by an intelligence capable of acting upon such. Asteroids could be used to
kick the shit out of us, without resorting to petty fission-fusing devices
that couldn't deflect one by more than a degree of arc.

The bible has to be left behind as old mythology, but only once it has been
comprehensively analysed by the scientific community, and explained to the
greater public in common terms, not jargon. It's easy to translate one form
of jargon into another, a real talent lies in rationalising an entire work
steeped in literary devices and religious metaphors into something more
useful to modern man. Leaving it up to undisciplined interpretation only
serves those who gain from the ignorance of the common man.


--
Jason Haines, aka Baron
INTERNET:[e-mail]  UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!jason
ACSNet:  [e-mail]
_______________________________________________________________________
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!isis.cs.du.edu!dhaley
From: [e-mail] (Dean Haley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kathy and Channeling UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 10:27:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Lines: 19
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
    of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
    control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>>On a different(?) note I have not yet seen any discussion on the only proven
>>aliens, that is where WE visit other worlds. Could we now be sewing the seeds
>>of a new race on another planet? Should we?
>
>The moon is a pretty nasty place, only specially engineered organisms
>might be able to exist there, but Mars is a possible place for
>accidental contamination.  It's not much worse that Antarctica, aside
>from the very low atmospheric pressure.  If we go to Mars, we will
>inevitably contaminate it with our microorganisms.  I don't know how
>long they would survive unprotected, however.
 As far as I know, no organisms yet discovered can live in a vacuum. Under
laboratory conditions however there are a few organisms which could withstand
Mars like conditions, if there was free water available and they could
block out UV light. Reference in Encyclopedia Britanica.

>I'll try to dig out references.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!linus!linus!tympani!gpivar
From: [e-mail] (Greg Pivarnik)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Redheaded Goddess
Keywords: "I yam what I yam!" -Popeye
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 10:20:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va
Lines: 30
Nntp-Posting-Host: tympani.mitre.org

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Shu Bin Zhu) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
|> >
|> >Each person must find his own truth.  No one, and I do mean NO ONE
|> >will bring you your answers or arguments on a silver platter, Julian.
|> >When you have your own direct experiences, you will realize how
|> >impossible it is to even *try* to convince another of what you have
|> >either experienced or have *realized*.  It is all individual.
|>
|> Hi Kathy:
|>  I agree with your statement above.  Infact I see little need in convincing
|>  others when one is believing in him/herself.
|>
|>  Just for curiosity, what kind company are you posting your message from?
|>  Is Redheaded Goddess the name of the company?
|>
|>  P.S.  Is everyone out there using VI for editing their message?

Thumbs up for Kathy and Shu Bin Zhu and anyone else that can make the
distinction within themselves that the universe is contained within Self.
All the insight, good intensions, and "wisdom of the ages", cannot make
anyone "see the Light".  It is your choice!  It is your heritage! It is your duty!

Choose any path which you may, high or low, we shall meet at the same
door step.
--
Greg
--
"I dream therefore I am."
--
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!gatech!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 06:45:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 46
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2582 sci.skeptic:16662

[e-mail] writes:

>
>      In answer to some question that were submitted to me I hereby submit the
> following answers;   The spacecraft that came over Palmdale, Calif was quite
> bit bigger than a Stealth Bomber  and a lot of people saw it.  That, pretty
> funny about  Pink Floyd and the flying pigs.  People from Venus do spread a
> lot of love.  The lady from Venus couldn t fix her TV because she was just as
> smart as a normal woman with no electronics training. Who knows maybe this
> person with the high temp. may have been from another planet is a previous
> life.
>    Now for today s posting.
>     There is a space scientist by the name of Soltec who found  that when
> space people come to the Earth their people within two years, start to act
> combative, hard to get along with and generally start acting like people and
> animals here on Earth.  They also found that if a space person is sent back t
> another planet they start acting normally within a few days.  Even if a perso
> from Earth is taken to another planet her or she starts acting OK.
>     When they checked the radiation coming from our sun it was found  that
> lambda radiation wasn t being filtered out by our covering around the Earth.
> This was corrected in l970 and it will take 60 years to get over this. The
> Earth has been accumulating this radiation in our soil and other things for
> millions of years.  By the turn of the century it should be much better
> although we may have to go though some rough times coming out of our present
> cycle until 2030.
>
> Don is posting this through his account for me .  I am not Don . Don is not
> me. John.
>
>
>
>
>

        You know, if they know all about lambda radiation, I'm certain they
could solev Fermat's Last Theorem-- as we REQUESTED at least a frigging MONTH
ago...

Rev. P-K-- "That's the problem with these suprior alien beings: they're
superior until you ask them questions."

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
[e-mail]                     "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnews!ewm
From: [e-mail] (edward.w.mcfarland)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Puerto Rican sitings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 13:11:10 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 21

I spoke to a friend who is from Puerto Rico and talks to his family weekly.
He says that while the wave of UFO sitings have been news for 8 or 9 months
the officials there are downplaying the whole affair. He says that this is
because the population has many occult elements (voodoo adherents, etc.)
and even a hint of official acknowlegement would dirve these elements crazy.

He said that the local newspapers barely mention the events there but the
spanish language papers that are printed for the stateside Puerto Rican
population have made a big story of it.  He hadn't heard about the F-14s
disappearing though.

He said he would inquire specifically on his next call home.


     Ed McFarland                       We make history the old-fashioned
     [e-mail]                  way, we revise it!

*  Truth :  the most deadly weapon ever discovered by humanity. Capable of   *
*  destroying entire perceptual sets, cultures, and realities. Outlawed by   *
*  all governments everywhere. Possession is normally punishable by death.   *
                                          -unknown (to me)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!bcm!DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU!skywalker
From: [e-mail] (Timothy B. Reynolds)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fox's UFO Program
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 13:04:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: X-Ray Crystallography / Howard Hughes Medical Institute
Lines: 23
Nntp-Posting-Host: dino.qci.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Leonard Spani) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:

 >
 >I thought the same thing about the "implant".
 >
 >Does anyone know if a shard of glass would become worn and rounded
 >smooth after a 'n' years in a human body?
 >

A friend of mine fell in a pile of broken glass when he was five,
as teenagers he would sometimes say "check this out" and squeeze a piece
(small) out of his knee. The small fragments were still sharp....
Ok so I hung around some strange people growing up......
tim



--
Disclaimer: My opinions are my own, not HHMI's or Baylor College of Medicine
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And we stand and watch the gods and idols fall, as the blameless ones go
 blindfold to the wall"                                  Robin Trower....
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!bcm!DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU!skywalker
From: [e-mail] (Timothy B. Reynolds)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fox's UFO Program
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 13:07:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: X-Ray Crystallography / Howard Hughes Medical Institute
Lines: 22
Nntp-Posting-Host: dino.qci.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David M. Schiff) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Leonard Spani) writes:
 >>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> >
 > It seems to me  the obvious thing to do would be to analyze it.
 > It could be checked for any signs of radiation or any strange properties.
 > Perhaps a chemical anaysis could also be done. It strikes me as odd
 > that someone who believes they might have an implant would not do
 > these things to see if that's what it is -- rather than an old piece
 > of glass! (Since the program didn't mention anything about an analysis,
 > I'm assuming nothing was done.) Very Strange.
 >

If you replay the show the announcer said it was checked and was
almost pure silicon with some traces of metals.....


--
Disclaimer: My opinions are my own, not HHMI's or Baylor College of Medicine
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And we stand and watch the gods and idols fall, as the blameless ones go
 blindfold to the wall"                                  Robin Trower....
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!uc.msc.edu!shamash!midway!quads!prec
From: [e-mail] (bruce lyman precourt)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro
Subject: Re:  Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 12:51:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NewsMistress)
Organization: University of Chicago
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2586 sci.skeptic:16666 sci.astro:12159

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>>
>>The grey aliens from Zeta Reticuli are a common subject in UFOlogical
>>circles (yes, even some of the serious ones.)  Wendelle Stevens is also a
>>common (and controversial) subject.  I don't know anything about this
>>alleged tape recording though, so I can't comment on that part.
>
>    Hmmm. Zeta Reticuli is a pair of stars (Z1 is a G2 and Z2 is a G1
>both main sequence) about 37 ly away, *and* by an odd coincidence, it is
>one of the few star systems mentioned by name in current popular entertainment:
>ZR is the system the movies Alien and Aliens were set in. Does the use of
>Zeti Reticuli in UFO lit predate Alien?
>
Yes indeed. As another poster mentioned, it involves the Betty & Barney Hill
abduction case. In the early 1970s, someone (a woman whose name I cannot
remember) took the crude diagram which Betty Hill reproduced from her
'memory' of a three-dimensional star-chart she says she saw aboard the UFO
and tried to match it to a known pattern of stars. There were certain
parameters she observed, such as concentrating on G-type stars from the
immediate galactic neighborhood.
The pattern she decided most closely corresponded to the Hill map was
centered on the double-star Zeta Reticuli (although many others claim
to have found equally valid possibilities using totally different stars.)
The reason I remember this so well is due to the fact that I used to work
at ASTRONOMY magazine in the '70s, which stirred up a huge controversy
by running a lead article outlining this proposal (December 1974 issue).

There were a few rebuttals and follow-ups in subsequent issues, mostly
trying to dismiss the whole thing as catering to UFO wackos. The publisher
came to agree with this (that ASTRONOMY was not the forum for debating
the existence of UFOs) and he declined to run any more articles on the
subject. There was, however, an offprint of the articles with the
various follow-ups which was sold as "The Zeta Reticuli Incident".

This reprint would probably be very hard to track down now, but the
original articles could be found by looking at the old issues of ASTRONOMY
(December 1974 & sometime during 1975).
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!tigger!schiffd
From: [e-mail] (David M. Schiff)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fox's UFO Program
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 14:32:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Planet)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 6
Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.cs.colorado.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Timothy B. Reynolds) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David M. Schiff) writes:
>If you replay the show the announcer said it was checked and was
>almost pure silicon with some traces of metals.....
>
Thank you. Now it really sounds like it's just a piece of glass.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!gatech!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!dkuug!iesd!efa
From: [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 14:06:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: CS and Math, University of Aalborg, Denmark
Lines: 44
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:
>>
>> You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.
>> The arguments against them (Post-Darwin) are *very* strong
>> indeed. In my opinion even strong enough to totally dismissing them as
>> an attempt to replace religion with science.
>>
>> I do not claim to be an expert in this field (because I am not), but
>> you should try to do some research on your own. I think you would
>> be very surprised of what you find - or rather of all the questions
>> you find.
>>
>> Erik F. Andersen, Denmark
>
>REALLY?
>
>Compare these comments to the article I posted, titled EVOLUTION v2 !!!
>
>BTW how do you know the arguments against Post-Darwinism are very strong indeed
>if you are not an expert in the field ???

  I am not myself arguing against the evolution-theories; that I'm not
qualified to do. I create an opinion based on what experts have to say
(obviously someone arguing against the orthodox ideas may not be regarded
as an expert by other scientists).

  In the original posting, I reacted to the statement that we
are descendants from fish (reptiles!!!). I do not beleave that this
is proven, and as long as there are sound arguments against it, I won't
beleave it. In laboratories, experiments are made with flies and mice
where they are exposed to huge amounts of x-rays - but what does
it prove? - that less than 1% of all mutations are to the better, and
that the species are very stabile (not likely to changes). We have
yet to see a mouse being turned into a rat. Of course
one could always argue, that the enourmous amount of time it took
before man appered could have accomplished anything; but isn't that
a matter of belief?

  If it is accepted that the universe was once only a seed, why then,
must everything else be logical?

Erik F. Andersen, Denmark
E-mail : [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!uw-beaver!milton!pontryagin.aa.washington.edu!wolverto
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 14:30:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: U of Wash Dept of Aeronautics and Astronautics
Lines: 13
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|> The bible has to be left behind as old mythology, but only once it has been
|> comprehensively analysed by the scientific community, and explained to the
|> greater public in common terms, not jargon. It's easy to translate one form
|> of jargon into another, a real talent lies in rationalising an entire work
|> steeped in literary devices and religious metaphors into something more
|> useful to modern man. Leaving it up to undisciplined interpretation only
|> serves those who gain from the ignorance of the common man.


Dear Mr. Haines,
     Beautifully stated, but extremely wrong.  You put far to much faith into the 'scientific community.'  They don't have a monopoly on truth, furthermore there business doesn't even deal with truth.  Additionally, the 'real talent' lies in using intelligence, through an objective window, in order to gain knowledge and properly direct one's faith.  Anyone can rationalize anything; there is no foundation here.
                                                                     GB,  Hagen
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!news.bbn.com!noc.near.net!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO TV show on FOX
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 03:16:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mike Dobbs)
says:
>
>The FOX network will air Linda Moulton Howes new documentary this
>Friday night (Oct 18) at 9:00 EDT/PDT.  It is called:
>The UFO Report: Sightings.
>It will last one hour.
>--------
>  Mike Dobbs        /    Internet: [e-mail]

I missed that show (and forgot to set the VCR to tape it).
Can someone tell me if it will be rebroadcast anytime soon.
Or can someone summarize the show for me here.

George Newell
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!news.bbn.com!noc.near.net!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: what is CEOTTK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 03:21:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 47

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Francois P. Thibaud) says:
>
>[e-mail] writes:
>
>[...]
>
>>A brief rundown of what I know:
>
>>Close Encounters...
>
>>1st Kind - Sightings of UFO's, etc... but with no evidence left behind
>>2nd Kind - Landings of UFO's with some type of evidence left (burn marks
>>               or something similar)
>>3rd Kind - Sighting/Contact with alien from UFO.
>>4th Kind - Abduction by said alien from UFO.
>>5th Kind - ??? I'm not sure ??? Does this encounter mean you "BECOME"
>>               an alien or something??? Someone else help me out here.
>
>>Hope this information is useful.
>
>>George Newell
>>[e-mail]
>
>Hi !
>
>As far as I know, 4th and 5th encounters differ by the results on the
>person:
>
>- 4th do not imply any particular consequences on the behavior
>of the subject;
>
>- 5th implies a change in the behavior as a result of mental,
>psychological and/or spiritual (?) interactions with aliens.  I've red
>amazing stuff about this; I don't remenber the title know, but I'll
>try to find it back.
>
>Francois P. THIBAUD  10/16/1991.


If you do find the title, please post the information here.

Thanks,


George Newell
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!Neon.Stanford.EDU!amorgan
From: [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: <None>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 15:45:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University, Ca , USA
Lines: 45
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3456 alt.alien.visitors:2592 sci.skeptic:16679 talk.religion.newage:7367

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:
>>
>> You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.
>> The arguments against them (Post-Darwin) are *very* strong
>> indeed. In my opinion even strong enough to totally dismissing them as
>> an attempt to replace religion with science.
>>
>> I do not claim to be an expert in this field (because I am not), but
>> you should try to do some research on your own. I think you would
>> be very surprised of what you find - or rather of all the questions
>> you find.
>>
>> Erik F. Andersen, Denmark
>
>REALLY?
>
>Compare these comments to the article I posted, titled EVOLUTION v2 !!!
>
>BTW how do you know the arguments against Post-Darwinism are very strong indeed
>if you are not an expert in the field ???

Another point, you (Erik) say that some of the arguments against evolution
are strong.  What exactly do you mean by evolution?  If you mean that the
theory as laid out by Darwin is not specifically accurate then you won't
surprise many people here.  Darwin's theory of evolution has been enhanced,
modified, and extended to take into account new knowlege.  A number of people
I know use this to mean that "Evolution is no longer taken seriously by
scientists".  Stephen J Gould is himself a proponent of punctuated
equilibrium, and not of "*Darwinian* evolution", but he doesn't believe that
evolution is invalid.

If you mean the general theory of evolution, the whole concept, is under fire
and has some valid arguments against it, I would really like to see them.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions above are not mine.  I stole them all from the person sitting next
to me.  If you don't like them, I can get you his address and you can kill him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan "Long live the Goon Show" Morgan | "You rotton swine, you!" - Bluebottle
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Watch out!  This gun is loaded and so am I." - Major Denis Bloodnok

    EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo!  EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!danwell
From: [e-mail] (Daniel A Ashlock)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 16:35:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Daniel A Ashlock)
Organization: Iowa State University
Lines: 15
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16682 alt.paranormal:3458 alt.alien.visitors:2593 talk.religion.newage:7368

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jason Haines)
> Hey Larry, I think science has done more for death and destruction than
> mythology, all the weapons of the last six thousand years are the product of
> scientific procedures - plenty have been killed by slings, catapults,
>woomeras,
> arrows, boiling oil, bullets, thermonuclear warheads, propane bombs - all
> tested in the field... but originated in the laboratory of the mind.
>
>
   This is engineering, damnit, just like plaster casts for broken legs,
sulfa drugs, and much of the green revolution.  Science doesn't kill people,
people kill people.

Dan
-my opinions.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!ils.nwu.edu!shafto
From: [e-mail] (Eric Shafto)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Soltec and Latin Dances
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 14:18:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2594 sci.skeptic:16684

[e-mail] writes:
>
>     There is a space scientist by the name of Soltec who found  that when
> space people come to the Earth their people within two years, start to act
> combative, hard to get along with and generally start acting like people and
> animals here on Earth.  They also found that if a space person is sent back to
> another planet they start acting normally within a few days.  Even if a person
> from Earth is taken to another planet her or she starts acting OK.
>     When they checked the radiation coming from our sun it was found  that
> lambda radiation wasn t being filtered out by our covering around the Earth.

Wait a minute.  If we were bombarded with Lambada radiation for all those
years, and it stopped in the 70's, how come the Lamabada didn't catch on
until the late 80's???

I've got you there, Pal, wriggling in the jaws of my inescapable logic!

I think I must live in an area of low Lambada radiation, since I
have never actually started doing the dance, and I'm STILL combative
and hard to get along with.  Just another fact your theory chokes on.

Huh?  What's that?  LAMBDA??? Ooooohhh.  Never mind.


--
*Eric Shafto             * Sometimes, I think we are alone.  Sometimes I  *
*Institute for the       * think we are not.  In either case, the thought *
*    Learning Sciences   * is quite staggering.                           *
*Northwestern University *     -- R. Buckminster Fuller                   *
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!news.bbn.com!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!milton!sumax!polari!rwing!fylz!eskimo!nanook
From: [e-mail] (Robert Dinse)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Lambda Radiation
Keywords: Lambda
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 04:25:51 GMT
Organization: ESKIMO NORTH [phone] SEATTLE WA.
Lines: 21


     I've heard of Alpha, Beta, and Gamma radiation.  Alpha particles being
essentially accelerated helium nuclei, Beta particles being fast electrons,
and Gamma radiation being very energetic photons or high frequency short
wave-lenth electro-magnetic radiation (shorter than X-rays).  I've heard of
proton and neutrons flux or beams, or just individual particles, muons, and
other exotic particles, "cosmic rays", electro-magnetic radiation.

     But I've never heard of Lambda radiation.  The only thing my dictionary
has for "Lambda" is "The 11th letter of the greek alphabet".  Is this just
coincidence or does this radiation have something to do with the Greeks?

     I'd appreciate any information anyone can shed on this (Don?)...
Especially how Lambda radiation interacts with ordinary matter and how it
affects human behavior.  It is obvious to me that SOMETHING is causing humans
to go bezerk, but putting an undefined label on it (Lambda Radiation) does
not help me to understand just what that something is.

     Also, are any of our human activities (nuclear reactors, nuclear bomb
tests, computer monitors) emitting Lambda radiation and if so how do we
correct it?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!gatech!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!seunet!sics.se!sics.se!psm
From: [e-mail] (Peter Magnusson)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 17:54:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: int i=0; while(i<4) putchar(((3*i-7)*i-6)*i+++83);
Lines: 35
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3460 alt.alien.visitors:2596 sci.skeptic:16685 talk.religion.newage:7369
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 22 Oct 91 14:06:44 GMT

>>>>> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:

efa>  We have
efa> yet to see a mouse being turned into a rat. Of course
efa> one could always argue, that the enourmous amount of time it took
efa> before man appered could have accomplished anything; but isn't that
efa> a matter of belief?

This is an old argument that isn't valid and never has been. There are several
documented cases of organisms evolving within an observable time space. One of
the first and still classical studies was of moths in a coalmining district in
Great Britain. They were previously white, which allowed them to hide against
the predominately white treetrunks, but became black as the pollution
blackened the tree trunks. In case you choose to missunderstand me, the moths
are now *born* black.

There has since been mountains of similar studies. Just look in the yearly
index of any major science journal and you will find them.


efa>   If it is accepted that the universe was once only a seed, why then,
efa> must everything else be logical?

There is no necessity, and it would be unwise to argue thus. The position of
science is to explain the physical phenomena - contrasted with the
metaphysical. The definition of correctness is predictability of outcome. The
philosophical consequences of scientific breakthroughs are certainly of
interest, but are not a part of the scientific process. Only predictability is
interesting.


--
Peter Magnusson
Swedish Institute of Computer Science
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq
From: [e-mail] (Kevin D. Quitt)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 18:05:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA
Lines: 60
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3461 alt.alien.visitors:2597 sci.skeptic:16688 talk.religion.newage:7371

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:
>  In the original posting, I reacted to the statement that we
>are descendants from fish (reptiles!!!). I do not beleave that this
>is proven, and as long as there are sound arguments against it, I won't
>beleave it.

    What kind of "proof" do you require?


> In laboratories, experiments are made with flies and mice
>where they are exposed to huge amounts of x-rays - but what does
>it prove? - that less than 1% of all mutations are to the better,

    Probably much less than this.  So what?  Mutation isn't the only
source of evolutionary change, merely the fastest.


> and
>that the species are very stabile (not likely to changes).

    This is false, and based on word-games.  The way to define a species
is by its characteristics, and whether it can breed with other groups
with similar characteristics.  Once a species has been defined this way,
the definition isn't going to change.  On the other hand, the animals
are free to adapt (and they do), eventually eventually some not matching
the original definition very well.  Some still will match the original
definition, so it appears that the original definition for the species
is still correct; hence your 'stability'.

    This is the same fallacy as considering a sports team to be the same
team year after year.  It isn't, although characteristics will carry
over and take time to change.  (Yes, I know this is a pretty weak
analogy, but it *does* make the point).


> We have
>yet to see a mouse being turned into a rat.

    True, but we have seen some species of animals produce other
species, as defined by the fact that they can't interbreed.  Same for a
number of plant species.

    Part of *this* fallacy is the idea that one species *turns into*
another species.  This is not what happens.  The new species splinters
off from the original, because of geological or metabolic isolation.  If
the speciation is a reult of change in the environment, the original
species may die off, but it didn't "change into" the new species.


>  If it is accepted that the universe was once only a seed, why then,
>must everything else be logical?

    Who accepts this?  And who accepts that the universe is logical?
--
 _
Kevin D. Quitt              srhqla!venus!kdq     [e-mail]
3D systems, inc.            26081 Avenue Hall    Valencia, CA 91355
VOICE [phone] x430   FAX [phone]

                96.37% of all statistics are made up.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: Lambda Radiation
Keywords: Lambda
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 18:56:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,talk.bizarre,alt.sex,alt.angst
Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay)
Lines: 45
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2598 alt.slack:1487 talk.bizarre:43797

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Dinse) writes:
>     I've heard of Alpha, Beta, and Gamma radiation.  [...]
>     But I've never heard of Lambda radiation.  The only thing my dictionary
>has for "Lambda" is "The 11th letter of the greek alphabet".  Is this just
>coincidence or does this radiation have something to do with the Greeks?
>
>     I'd appreciate any information anyone can shed on this (Don?)...
>Especially how Lambda radiation interacts with ordinary matter and how it
>affects human behavior.  It is obvious to me that SOMETHING is causing humans
>to go bezerk, but putting an undefined label on it (Lambda Radiation) does
>not help me to understand just what that something is.
>
>     Also, are any of our human activities (nuclear reactors, nuclear bomb
>tests, computer monitors) emitting Lambda radiation and if so how do we
>correct it?

1)  Kill your TV.  I suggest defenestration.  Make a tape of that fun
    act and then throw the TAPE out the window too!

2)  Embed your computer monitor in the exact center of a twelve-foot
    sphere of lead and then RUN.

3)  Take iodine tablets daily along with "American Gladiators Super
    Fuel(TM)" non-anabolic bulkbuilder vitamin supplement.

4)  Keep that can of Spam closed at ALL TIMES.  Do not dispose of can.
    Do not touch or move can.  If civilization collapses due to this
    madness, rebuild civilization AROUND THE CAN.

5)  You can get the Bad Radiation out of your brain by sterilizing your
    head in a handy autoclave or 7-11 microwave.  Note: be sure any
    onlookers are wearing old clothes.

6)  Anything containing ATOMS (the dealy little particles that some atomic
    reactors SPLIT) should be sent to THE CENTER FOR ATOM DISPOSAL
    care of me.  Note that paper money is KNOWN to be FULL OF ATOMS!




--
.............................................................................
James "Kibo" Parry      [e-mail]    Independent graphic designer
271 Dartmouth St. #3D                         (specialty: logos & corporate
Boston, MA 02116          [phone]      identities) and type designer.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!unlinfo.unl.edu!czarbock
From: [e-mail] (carol zarbock)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Negative ETs; Evil Helpers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 19:34:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Lines: 11

It seems strange to me that the founder of the Sufi order of
the west would write from a Christian perspective of satanic
things.

My only comment is, that there are those who do not see
things as good and/vs. evil, but actually on a continuum.

Still not clear how this is relevant to this newsgroup.

Respectfully,
Carol
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!cc.helsinki.fi!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 18:49:46 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Uutis Ankka)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 23


Yeah, I was wondering just howlong it would be before someone realised
that these messages from aliens sound loopy.  I wasn't going to be the
first, although I did post some questions a while back.

OK, I too find all these spurious technical additions to what are basically
new-age religious treatises a bit hard to take.  However much these
"aliens" dress up their language it really still doesn't get round the
problems of
a) Why they don't land in a park and tell us all about themselves
if they're so keen to contact us with vital messages.
b) Why they keep on contacting housewives, ex-drug addicts, schizophrenics
etc.  Again, if their message is SO important they would surely contact
a leader of state.  There must be some government official, somewhere
who is capable of receiving them.

This is not a flame, but sometimes in the evening with a huge mound
of work to get through, the inconsequential and illogical nature
of some of these messages just seems hilarious.  Give us something
REAL to chew on...

Jason
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!holloway
From: [e-mail] (Bill Holloway)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 20:11:05 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 6


     Come on, folks.  There are no alien visitors.
--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you're wondering whether your work on Earth  |      Bill Holloway
is finished, if you're alive, it isn't.         | [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!uoft02.utoledo.edu!bgsuvax!gagen
From: [e-mail] (kathleen gagen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 18:14:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
Lines: 26
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From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Gordon Fitch):
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
> Why do they always have California falling into the sea?  I've
> been watching it for a number of years now and it hasn't done a
> god-damned thing, except sit there and get dusty.  You would
> think if it were going to fall into the sea, it would have made
> some kind of a move in that direction by now.

The San Andreas fault runs through California.  It is thought by geologists
and seismologists to be beh boundry between two tectonic plates.  When these
two plates move with respect to each other an earthquake occurs.
>
> To hell with California.  I want to see a prediction where Iowa
> falls into the sea.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no major fault lines in this region.
It doesn't take precognition to predict the EVENTUAL separation of the west
coast of california from the rest of the continent...mearly an understanding
of plate tectonics.  An explaination should be found in most modern
geology textbooks.

Kathi

> --
> * Gordon Fitch | [e-mail] | uunet!cmcl2.nyu.edu!panix!mydog!gcf *
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!uoft02.utoledo.edu!bgsuvax!gagen
From: [e-mail] (kathleen gagen)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 18:44:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
Lines: 26
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16692 alt.paranormal:3463 alt.alien.visitors:2603 talk.religion.newage:7373

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Jason Haines):
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>
> Hey Larry, I think science has done more for death and destruction than
> mythology, all the weapons of the last six thousand years are the product of
> scientific procedures -

Science is a METHOD for analyzing and understanding natural phenomenon.
It seems to me that science is neither moral nor immoral, but rather
amorral.  Scientists, like any other humans may bwe either.   Scientific
discoveries may often be used for good or ill.  For instance, nuclear
physics has lead to the development of the bomb, the X-ray, and radiation
therapy for cancer patients.  Morphein can be used medically to reduce
pain or as an illegal drug.  Electricity can be used to execute people or to
light rooms.

Without scientific discovery we would not have invetro fertilization,
the average lifespan would be 25 yrs, and you would not be sitting in
front of your computer terminal.

It seems to me that it is not science that is to blame, but social and
governmental policies that are to blame for death and destruction.
After all, the Chinese used gunpowder for fireworks cellebrations
before Europeans decided to use it to propell lead.

Kathi
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!uoft02.utoledo.edu!bgsuvax!gagen
From: [e-mail] (kathleen gagen)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 18:58:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.paranormal
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
Lines: 27
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From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen):
>
>   In the original posting, I reacted to the statement that we
> are descendants from fish (reptiles!!!). I do not beleave that this
> is proven, and as long as there are sound arguments against it, I won't
> beleave it.

I know of no evolutionary biologist who would state that humans are descended
from fish OR reptiles.  Rather, humans, fish, and reptiles share a common
ancestor.
In laboratories, experiments are made with flies and mice
> where they are exposed to huge amounts of x-rays - but what does
> it prove? - that less than 1% of all mutations are to the better, and
> that the species are very stabile (not likely to changes).

Excuse me!!!!
Species can and do change.  In the laboratory, selection can be performed
upon a number of traits.  After a number of generations of selection,
the populations can be shown to diverge to a point where they are
significantly different.

> yet to see a mouse being turned into a rat.

True.  However, we have seen Teocintle being changed, probably through
selective breeding, into common corn.

Kathi Gagen
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro
Subject: Re:  Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 20:31:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
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[e-mail] (bruce lyman precourt) writes:

>>ZR is the system the movies Alien and Aliens were set in. Does the use of
>>Zeti Reticuli in UFO lit predate Alien?
>>
> Yes indeed. As another poster mentioned, it involves the Betty & Barney Hill
> abduction case. In the early 1970s, someone (a woman whose name I cannot
> remember) took the crude diagram which Betty Hill reproduced from her
> 'memory' of a three-dimensional star-chart she says she saw aboard the UFO
> and tried to match it to a known pattern of stars. There were certain
> parameters she observed, such as concentrating on G-type stars from the
> immediate galactic neighborhood.
> The pattern she decided most closely corresponded to the Hill map was
> centered on the double-star Zeta Reticuli (although many others claim
> to have found equally valid possibilities using totally different stars.)
> The reason I remember this so well is due to the fact that I used to work
> at ASTRONOMY magazine in the '70s, which stirred up a huge controversy
> by running a lead article outlining this proposal (December 1974 issue).

I've seen a copy of Betty Hill's so called "map" and how it was
supposed to match ZR if you distorted it this way, and moved these
stars over there, stood 12ft away and squinted.

It matched many other formations just as well -- including a couple of
randomly generated dot patterns.

As you can tell, I was not impressed.

--
Grant Edwards                                  |Yow! I selected E5... but I
Rosemount Inc.                                 |didn't hear ``Sam the Sham and
                                               |the Pharoahs''!
[e-mail]                  |
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!holloway
From: [e-mail] (Bill Holloway)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Soltec and Latin Dances
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 21:15:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 22 Oct 91 14:18:52 GMT


     I actually tried the lambada radiation treatment now available at
University hospital in Houston.  The treatment actually took place in
a nightclub near the hospital.  They wheeled me in nude on a stretcher
with those funny reflecting, suntan reflectors all around.  There were
all these people, then, next to the stretcher doing the lambada.
We're still waiting for the test results to see if the treatment was
effective.
--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you're wondering whether your work on Earth  |      Bill Holloway
is finished, if you're alive, it isn't.         | [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!emory!ducvax.auburn.edu!eng.auburn.edu!sroberts
From: [e-mail] (Scott T Roberts)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 22:00:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
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Nntp-Posting-Host: lab22.eng.auburn.edu

Note: Although I correct this poster's spelling, I realize that,
      being from Denmark, English may not be his native tongue.
      I make no claims to the accuracy of my own spelling.

In article <[e-mail]> E.F. Anderson writes:
>>>
>>> You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.
>>                               ^^^^^^^^^
>  In the original posting, I reacted to the statement that we
>are descendants from fish (reptiles!!!). I do not beleave that this
>is proven, and as long as there are sound arguments against it, I won't
>beleave it.
 ^^^^^^^
I am not an expert either, but I'm not aware of any sound arguements
against any major tenants of evolution.

beleave->believe

 >In laboratories, experiments are made with flies and mice
>where they are exposed to huge amounts of x-rays - but what does
>it prove? - that less than 1% of all mutations are to the better, and
>that the species are very stabile (not likely to changes). We have
                           ^^^^^^^                ^^^^^^
stable    change
It proves alot.

>yet to see a mouse being turned into a rat. Of course
>one could always argue, that the enourmous amount of time it took
>before man appered could have accomplished anything; but isn't that
            ^^^^^^^
>a matter of belief?
>
appeared
No. I believe evolution has been demonstrated without xrays in many ways.
St. Bernards and Poodles are still considered to be in the same species
only because of tradition. There are many species that are more similar
to each other and are not considered to be in the same species.

I'm not sure that there is any difference between "rats" and "mice".
Maybe you mean changing the species of mice.  I think of some
dogs as being no more than "rats" and others seem not far from being
horses.

We should not contradict the experts on a subject unless we are
as experienced in the subject. We should also not claim knowledge
of what the experts say unless we have taken the time to *know*
what the experts are saying. The best way is to read what the experts
are saying in their condensed works (encyclopedias and textbooks).
I have never read an encyclopedia or respected textbook that said
evolution was anything other than a fact. I suppose there could be a
conspiracy in place or that scientists are not being critical
enough of evolution, but I doubt it.
>
>Erik F. Andersen, Denmark
>E-mail : [e-mail]

What's the christian newsgroup's name? I lost my list and I can't find
it through an automatic search.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!rjp1
From: [e-mail] (be here now)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 22:16:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Could you all take this discussion OUT of talk.religion.newage???

Thanks in advance.


--
rj pietkivitch   |   "Mitakuye Oyasin.  All my relations."
att!ihlpz!rjp1   |     -- Lakota saying
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!cbnewsc!rjp1
From: [e-mail] (be here now)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 22:18:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9


Could you all keep this discussion OUT of talk.religion.newage??

Thanks in advance.


--
rj pietkivitch   |   "Mitakuye Oyasin.  All my relations."
att!ihlpz!rjp1   |     -- Lakota saying
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!rjp1
From: [e-mail] (be here now)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 22:28:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Lines: 9
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3467 alt.alien.visitors:2610 sci.skeptic:16700 talk.religion.newage:7377


Could you all keep this discussion OUT of talk.religion.newage??

Thanks in advance.


--
rj pietkivitch   |   "Mitakuye Oyasin.  All my relations."
att!ihlpz!rjp1   |     -- Lakota saying
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 23:20:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jason Haines)
says:
>
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
>(Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>>What arguments? The only argument I ever see is "the bible says so" sorry
>this
>>doesn't cut it. I can't believe that we are arguing about mythology vs.
>>science on a network that would not exist if it were not for science. What
>has
>>mythology achieved (other than death and destruction).
>
>Hey Larry, I think science has done more for death and destruction than
>mythology, all the weapons of the last six thousand years are the product of
>scientific procedures - plenty have been killed by slings, catapults,
>woomeras,
>arrows, boiling oil, bullets, thermonuclear warheads, propane bombs - all
>tested in the field... but originated in the laboratory of the mind.

Yes, thinking is a very DANGEROUS activity.  If organisms had never started
thinking, billions of lives would have been saved that have since fallen
victim to vicious hunting predators, coordinated activity by marauding
hordes of insects, heretics would never have been burned for their beliefs,
and the world would have been sweet and kind...  Let's ban THINKING!
Be a patriot and step forward as the first volunteer for a lobotomy to
inspire everyone else!

Give me one technological principle (not a specific application) that has
been used to do more harm than good or even has more evil applications than
good ones.  Science is a dangerous thing.  It is all about the manipulation
of matter and it gives us increasingly powerful ways to do it.  What you
do with it and what your society does with these techniques is yours and
the other members of your society's responsibility, not the sole responsibility
of scientists.  The Bible itself describes many wondrous and charming
ways of torturing, maiming, and executing evildoers.  Does this make it
totally evil?
  If you run away from science as the evil tool of the military, you will
simply allow others to develop it and use it against you.  Just look at
the sound thrashings we're getting from Japan lately.  Just wait until another
20 years of science apathy has transpired in our country.  There's no turning
back, there's no stopping the ride.  It's a one way trip we're on.  All you
can do is try to be on the winning side, which will hopefully end up all of
us.

>Maybe gravity lenses and dark matter seem a little like 'science fantasy',
>but the human race could be obliterated by the application of these ideas
>by an intelligence capable of acting upon such. Asteroids could be used to
>kick the shit out of us, without resorting to petty fission-fusing devices
>that couldn't deflect one by more than a degree of arc.

We could probably be obliterated by the results of several mutations in the
AIDS virus.  Better run into a cave and hide!  If an alien race wants to
wipe us out, they'll do it, and there's not a thing that you and the rest
of us monkeyboys and womyn can do about it.  They could also do it with
more finesse and expertise than a Clarence Thomas date.

>The bible has to be left behind as old mythology, but only once it has been
>comprehensively analysed by the scientific community, and explained to the
>greater public in common terms, not jargon. It's easy to translate one form
>of jargon into another, a real talent lies in rationalising an entire work
>steeped in literary devices and religious metaphors into something more
>useful to modern man. Leaving it up to undisciplined interpretation only
>serves those who gain from the ignorance of the common man.

What is in the Bible?
-The distorted history of Israel
-The bed wetting antics of Yahweh
-Various myths and law codes lifted from other societies
-Lots of depressing psalms
-Some good violent bits here and there
-The last year or so of Christ's life as told by a bunch of believers with
a mission, 60 years or so after his death.  Might as well have Geraldo on
the case
-The fun misanthropic antics of Paul, a sadist with a vision.  He's an
OK guy to know, but don't let him know you like women or uh oh...

The Bible HAS been analyzed scientifically by many people in many
countries.  Some of them have made some surprising conclusions that
some don't think should ever be known.  Get out of your hole and go
to the library and get some books on Biblical Exegesis.
                                                   :
                                                   |Unrepentant Jargon, do
                                                    you know what a dictionary
                                                    is?  If not, look it up...
>
>--
>Jason Haines, aka Baron
>INTERNET:[e-mail]  UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!jason
>ACSNet:  [e-mail]
>_______________________________________________________________________

                              .edu!
                   rGeL       ul108  "Black Underwear?  Oooh I LOVE
                   andt       sms1@   black underwear!"
                   Scot       psmlp   -A Local Street Preacher
                              .mvus
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com|pdxgate!reed!henson!milton!serval!kirk
From: [e-mail] (James Kirk)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: test
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 16:19:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Distribution: na
Organization: Dept. of Elect. Eng. & Comp. Sci.
Lines: 1

test...one, two, three...test
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From: [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 02:31:24 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
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[e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) says:
   [...regarding the visitors from Venus...]
> You know, if they know all about lambda radiation, I'm certain they
> could solev Fermat's Last Theorem-- as we REQUESTED at least a frigging MONTH
> ago...

I think you're mistaken about this.  Fermat was himself a Venusian, and
publicized his bogus theorem because he knew that it is unprovable...
The reason for this, and other similar time-wasting enterprises, is to
ensure that humanity never catches up to the Venusians.  (Do I need to
insert a smiley here ???  I hope not.)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!emory!ducvax.auburn.edu!eng.auburn.edu!sroberts
From: [e-mail] (Scott T Roberts)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 22:19:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason Haines) writes:

>Hey Larry, I think science has done more for death and destruction than
>mythology, all the weapons of the last six thousand years are the product of
>scientific procedures - plenty have been killed by slings, catapults, woomeras,
>arrows, boiling oil, bullets, thermonuclear warheads, propane bombs - all
>tested in the field... but originated in the laboratory of the mind.
>

If it wasn't for science, there wouldn't be very many people to kill in the
first place.

>
>The bible has to be left behind as old mythology, but only once it has been
>comprehensively analysed by the scientific community, and explained to the
>greater public in common terms, not jargon.

(the following curse word is used only because of my fustration over the
persistent belief of people that there is any value whatsoever in the Bible
for future men. It is only good for historical and cultural knowledge.)
I do not need the scientific community to tell me that the bible
is a bunch of horseshit. I dare anyone to find a mythology that makes less
sense or is as nearly immoral.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!uoft02.utoledo.edu!bgsuvax!gagen
From: [e-mail] (kathleen gagen)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 22:56:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.paranormal
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
Lines: 19
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From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Scott T Roberts):
>
> I'm not sure that there is any difference between "rats" and "mice".

There are many differences between  "rats" and "mice".  They are members
of different genera.  (A genus is a group of one or more species).
>
> We should not contradict the experts on a subject unless we are
> as experienced in the subject.

I know of no scientist including myself who would agree with this statement.
Galeleo, Pasteur, and Darwin all contradicted the expert opinion of
their time.

Kathleen Pausic Gagen
Bowling Green State University
Bowling Green Ohio 43620

[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct
From: [e-mail] (Brent)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fox's UFO Program
Summary: I thought they did do an analysis
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 02:58:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Distribution: na
Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc.
Lines: 12

[e-mail] (David M. Schiff) writes:
>>|> Any comments on the implant removed from that guy? It looked like a large
>>|> piece of beach-glass to me.
>It seems to me  the obvious thing to do would be to analyze it.
>... (Since the program didn't mention anything about an analysis,
>I'm assuming nothing was done.) Very Strange.

When they showed the up-close picture of the implant, the speaker mentioned
something about it being silicon and glass.  Unfortunately I missed about the
3 words prior to that and didn't understand what he was talking about-- I was
wondering exactly what it was.  Perhaps THE ALIENS scrambled my TV for a
second so I cound't hear it?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro
Subject: Re:   Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Oct 91 17:25:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 17
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>    Hmmm. Zeta Reticuli is a pair of stars (Z1 is a G2 and Z2 is a G1
>both main sequence) about 37 ly away, *and* by an odd coincidence, it is
>one of the few star systems mentioned by name in current popular entertainment:
>ZR is the system the movies Alien and Aliens were set in. Does the use of
>Zeti Reticuli in UFO lit predate Alien?

Hmmmm.    I didn't know that Zeta Reticuli was used in "Alien".  I think the
first mention of it was in an attempt to analyze the star map that Betty
Hill saw on board the ship that abducted her.  I don't know the date of
that, but it's got to be before "Alien".

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!sgraziano
From: [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Channeling & UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 05:41:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 14

Who owns the trademarks on those terms?












[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the pleiladien transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 01:38:40 GMT
References: <dt4.687824237@pear> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Oh, BTW I am also very into Billie Meier, I have two of the contact notes books
>scanned into the computer with permission from Wendelle Stevens to post stuff
>from the books, I have been pleading with this group for two years to ask about
>stuff I could quote from the contact notes, with no takers.  Hmmm. Maybe I will
>just start posting my favorite conversations between Billie and Samjese. How
>about the trip they took all over the universe?
>Don Showen

Don...don't WAIT for people to ASK you..just go ahead and post them.

I don't have any of Wendelle's books ($$$$) on Billy Meier so please, if
Wendelle gave you permission...go ahead and post them to the Net in their
entirety.

Did you manage to catch the FOX show last week? Pretty good effort for
the "Fonz" :-)

Best regards,

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ukc!ieunet!tcdcs!maths.tcd.ie!fergal
From: [e-mail] (Fergal Somers)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,talk.bizarre,alt.sex,alt.angst
Subject: Re: Lambda Radiation
Keywords: Lambda
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 09:39:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Lines: 43
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Dinse) writes:
>     Also, are any of our human activities (nuclear reactors, nuclear bomb
>tests, computer monitors) emitting Lambda radiation and if so how do we
>correct it?

I've heard a number of theories about lambda radiation.

1: It's emmitted by post-coital sheep.
   Effect on Humans: Overwhelming urge to go-up to the nearest sheep, grab
   some soft white flesh in your hands, pucker it into a lump and take a big
   red juicy bite.
                       or
   Since sheep (apart from sharks) have reached the perfect form in
   evolutionary terms, it causes the victim to be lulled into a false sense
   of security about these rabid killers. Subject will feel that sheep are
   mindless placid animals and become easy prey to the nearest roaming
   pack of these insatiable predators.

2. It cold, wet climates its emitted by telephones - hence the need for
   telephone sanitisers in UK.
   Effect on Telephones: overloads circuitry on hold-buttons. Causes the
   machine to go beserk, and receive ransmissions from Aliens beaming
   "Adele Weiss" and "Greensleves" (manically rendered on casio digital
   watches) onto the line. The messages are of course being beamed by the
   Aliens as a softening-up ploy for Xist day.
   Effect on Humans: Brutal and senseless destruction of nearest telephone.

3. Emitted from wool at high centrefugal forces and temperatures.
   Effect on wool: Causes wool items to emit negatively and positively
   charged lambda particles. Items taken from the same fleece (eg. socks)
   can become oppositely charged and repel one-another. At high centrefugal
   forces can cause such items to resonate and escape into other dimensions.
   Effect on socks: bad hangover, excessive psychological trauma.

F.



--
|boingboingboingboingboingboingboingboingboin~ Fergal  "no sleep till bedtime"|
|            A LEAP AHEAD                    ~ [e-mail]|
|          THROUGH INSANITY                  ~ JEDER FUER SICH UND GOTT GEGEN |
|boingboingboingboingboingboingboingboingboin~ ALLES -  but always SKATE HARD |
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!isis.cs.du.edu!dhaley
From: [e-mail] (Dean Haley)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 11:14:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Lines: 26
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3471 alt.alien.visitors:2622 sci.skeptic:16717 talk.religion.newage:7382
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
    of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
    control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Magnusson) writes:
>>>>>> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:
>
>efa>  We have
>efa> yet to see a mouse being turned into a rat. Of course
>efa> one could always argue, that the enourmous amount of time it took
>efa> before man appered could have accomplished anything; but isn't that
>efa> a matter of belief?
>
>This is an old argument that isn't valid and never has been. There are several
>documented cases of organisms evolving within an observable time space. One of
>the first and still classical studies was of moths in a coalmining district in
>Great Britain. They were previously white, which allowed them to hide against
>the predominately white treetrunks, but became black as the pollution
>blackened the tree trunks. In case you choose to missunderstand me, the moths
>are now *born* black.

 Also try one particular species of Sea grass. This is totally new and is
evidence of rapid evolution, ie in a single generation. It grows somewhere
along the coast of America. Reference- Seniour Biology for  students.
 Now tell me evolution doesn't exist. It is happening before our eyes.

>There has since been mountains of similar studies. Just look in the yearly
>index of any major science journal and you will find them.

Agreed
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!cc.helsinki.fi!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Lambda Radiation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 11:42:59 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Uutis Ankka)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 21


Hey, isn't it funny that the aliens know Greek (LAMBDA radiation) as
well as newage-American English?
    How come this stuff has soaked into the ground? Fallout from
bombs etc. does that, not radiation.  If it was "retained" in some way
by the ground then that would indicate some form of nuclear or chemical
reaction is being induced.  I haven't heard that the top layer of the
crust is atomically odd when compared with, say, core samples from
oil-rigs.
    The fact is that there is no such thing as lambda radiation, as
far as we know.  That's good enough for me at the moment.  If the aliens
can show that there is some weirdo kind of radiation which makes us all
into bad guys, worthy to have our planet blown sky-high, then I'd be
interested.
    Why do all these different kind of aliens, with different messages,
anatomies and spacecraft show such an interest in out Earth?  It's not
THAT interesting is it ....?


Jason
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rutgers!noao!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Discoveries?
Message-ID: <1991Oct22.134839.8111@anasaz>
Date: 22 Oct 91 13:48:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Larry Smith) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) writes:
]>>In [e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Coffman) writes:
]>>>With Columbus' aniversary of discovering the new world looming,
]>>
[>>I know alot of people will probably think I'm being picky, but oh well.
]>>
]>>The only thing that Columbus "discovered" was that he screwed up on
]>>his way to India.  That and how easy it is submit an entire society
]>>to slavery, pillaging and genocide when you're a brutal liar and that
]>>society is unprepared for an invasion.
]>>
]>>Sorry for the vitriol, people, but I'm Apache (mostly), and this
]>>"celebration" of 500 years of the rape, torture, robbery, deceit,
]>>relocation, annihiliation, etc. of the first inhabitants of this land
]>>(not to mention the land itself) is insulting and crude.  Don't
]>>intelligent people recognize that?

You know that comment which you direct against Columbus applies almost word
for word to the Apache too. Take a way "relocation" and you've got it.  Of
course we don't celebrate Apache "discoveries" and I guess that's your point.
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kathy and Channeling UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 14:07:06 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 31


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>
>The unproven *should* be proven with logic and proof as a base rather than
>ignored, otherwise this newsgroup will achieve nothing but a new "religion"
>with faith as its basis.

I'm beginning to agree with you.  And I think it will be.


>
>On a different(?) note I have not yet seen any discussion on the only proven
>aliens, that is where WE visit other worlds. Could we now be sewing the seeds
>of a new race on another planet? Should we?

:-)

I've been waiting for someone else to reach this conclusion.  I think we
are now and as to whether we should or not... well, it's a little late
for that discussion.

But I think we should (for the record)... life has a vested interest in
seeing to it that life proliferates in the universe.


---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!dkuug!iesd!iesd.auc.dk!efa
From: [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 15:26:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Mathematics and Computer Science, University of Aalborg
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3472 alt.alien.visitors:2627 talk.religion.newage:7383
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 22 Oct 91 22:00:28 GMT


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott T Roberts) writes:

** Dumb comments deleted **

>  What's the christian newsgroup's name? I lost my list and I can't find
>  it through an automatic search.

  I do not like to be stamped christian just because I have the nerve
to question evolution.

  My apologies to all the readers in alt.paranormal, alt.alien.visitors
and talk.religion.newage for bringing this discussion into your
newsgroups. The error was mine.

Erik F. Andersen, Denmark
Path: ns-mx!uunet!olivea!tekbspa!mathon
From: [e-mail] (John D. Mathon (593-0923))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 14:45:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Teknekron Software Systems, Inc.
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (kathleen gagen) writes:
> From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Gordon Fitch):
> > In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
> >
> > Why do they always have California falling into the sea?  I've
> > been watching it for a number of years now and it hasn't done a
> > god-damned thing, except sit there and get dusty.  You would
> > think if it were going to fall into the sea, it would have made
> > some kind of a move in that direction by now.

The part of California to the west of the San Andreas fault is going north.

It is also rising, meaning that California is not FALLING into the sea,
rather, California is covering the rest of the country.  Actually, it is
going North and won't cover the rest of the country, but, since other
people like to think of california going away, I will point out we are
not going away and if anything, we are pushing the rest of the country
into the center of the earth.

Of course, this process will take millions of years, so everybody has got
plenty of notice.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!Sirius.dfn.de!fauern!math.fu-berlin.de!unido!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!dkuug!iesd!iesd.auc.dk!efa
From: [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: MAJESTIC
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 16:44:17 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Mathematics and Computer Science, University of Aalborg
Lines: 12


  Has anyone read the book by Whitley Scrieber called MAJESTIC. I read
it for the first time about 6 months ago, and have just started on
it again.

  What fascinates me is, that the story might be TRUE!! It wouldn't
surprise me, if a government would try to cover a story like that
up at any cost.

  Please let me know what you thought of the book.

Erik F. Andersen, Denmark
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!tigger!bear
From: [e-mail] (Bear Giles)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 23:42:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Planet)
Organization: National Oceanic & Atmospheric Adminstration / Boulder Labs
Lines: 23
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3475 alt.alien.visitors:2630 sci.skeptic:16756 talk.religion.newage:7386
Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.cs.colorado.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Magnusson) writes:
>
>This is an old argument that isn't valid and never has been. There are several
>documented cases of organisms evolving within an observable time space. One of
>the first and still classical studies was of moths in a coalmining district in
>Great Britain. They were previously white, which allowed them to hide against
>the predominately white treetrunks, but became black as the pollution
>blackened the tree trunks. In case you choose to missunderstand me, the moths
>are now *born* black.
>
>Peter Magnusson

I read somewhere (Stephen Jay Gould?) that this is not a proper example of
evolution.  There have _always_ been dark and light moths, in much the same
way that Caucasian populations have blue and brown eyes.

Selectively kill off anyone with blue eyes for a number of generations and
you'll see many more people with brown eyes, but humans will not have evolved
towards brown eyes.  Stop killing the blue-eyed people, killing brown-eyed
people instead, and the number of blue-eyed people will rise rapidly.

Bear Giles
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Gulf Breeze And Cia/dod Plots
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 00:03:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 41

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:

>>I heard a very interesting theory from a qualified opponent of the Gulf Breeze
>>photos.  The theory is that someone in the distance was holding the model on a
>>large stick, broom handle, etc., while Ed made the video from behind the bush.
>>According to this person, who has viewed the entire video, the street lamp
>>which is in the school yard, blinks out at the precise moment that the UFO
>>passes over it, indicating a support structure holding the UFO up.  The
>>problem with the video is that we never get to see enough of it on the
>>television programs that show this occurrance.
>
>The big problem with the model-on-a-stick theory seems to be, why isn't
>there a break in the glowing blue ring on the bottom of the object?

Because (choose and implement one):
    The ring is in front of the stick.
    The stick has that part of the ring painted on it.
    The stick has a hook that loops up behind to the top or side
    of the object.

Isn't it odd that semi-decent UFO photographs and footage are now
showing up at the same time that technology has improved enough to make
the fake photographs and footage indistinguishable from the real
thing?

Anyone who has seen a special effects oriented movie in the past 15
years knows how good the technology is.  It's gotten to the point
where, if someone did show me some truly genuine extraterrestrial
photographs, or even extensive footage, I would have to believe that
the simpler explanation is that it's output from a special effects
studio.

For me, extraordinary proof is now: advanced technology or information,
or personal experience.

My favorite is the prediction of some event such as a near term
supernova, or information that can be confirmed by an interplanetary
probe (there are a few in transit right now).
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!mahendo!pluto!alan
From: [e-mail] (Alan Quan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 00:10:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Alan Quan)
Organization: Technology Development Group (JPL)
Lines: 42
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2632 alt.paranormal:3476

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
|> >I reviewed some of Gordon-Micheal Scallion's predictions for between
|> >now and the year 1997.  We are in for one hell of a ride!
|>
|> I'll say... :)
|>
|> >Within 24 months of the Eureka quakes, California, as we know it, will
|> >begin to break up.  It will come to be known as the ``Isles of
|> >California''.  The area to the east of the Hayward fault from Eureka
|> >to Bakersfield will be inundated.  San Francisco north will be like an
|> >island.  This will be the first of three major changes for California.
|> >Oh yea, New York and Japan will go bye-bye.
|>
|> So, we have Japan, New York, and California falling beneath the sea
|> like Atlantis did long ago. I find it interesting that you mention
|> these three areas. Is anyone out there familiar with the magazine
|> 'Master of Life' by Dick Sutphen? He sells a *fiction* newage book on
|> tape in it called _Pisces Rising_ which tells about a spiritual
|> commune called Autonomy. The leader predicts the fall of Japan, New
|> York, and finally California, in that order, and by the end of the
|> story (very entertaining, I highly recommend it) the first two have
|> already bit it. Perhaps Dick, the authour, looked at Scallion's
|> predictions to get his inspiration and ideas?
|>

I missed the original posting on this topic so excuse me if I repeat
anything previously stated.  It's interesting to note that Chet Snow's
book _Mass_Dreams_of_the_Future_ also has predictions about the period
1997-98 that say that much of California and all of Japan will be
submerged into the Pacific due to severe earthquakes and volcanic
activity.  Also predicted are other natural catastrophes including
extreme climatic changes that will cause freezing temperatures in
what's left of the Southwest.  These predictions are based on
information obtained from future-life progressions of a few selected
subjects under hypnosis, conducted by the author and Helen Wambach.
The predictions are indirectly supported by documented progressions of
thousands of other subjects.



Alan Quan     [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!silver!erisande
From: [e-mail] (erin s anderson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 01:17:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: Erin
Organization: Indiana University
Lines: 41
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16764 alt.paranormal:3477 alt.alien.visitors:2633 talk.religion.newage:7387
Nntp-Posting-Host: silver.ucs.indiana.edu

>What arguments? The only argument I ever see is "the bible says so" sorry this
>doesn't cut it. I can't believe that we are arguing about mythology vs.
>science on a network that would not exist if it were not for science. What has
>mythology achieved (other than death and destruction).
---------------------
>Hey Larry, I think science has done more for death and destruction than
>mythology, all the weapons of the last six thousand years are the product of
>scientific procedures - plenty have been killed by slings, catapults, woomeras
>arrows, boiling oil, bullets, thermonuclear warheads, propane bombs - all
>tested in the field... but originated in the laboratory of the mind.

Ok, so science has 'bombed' in a few areas, but look what it has
gained for the common people.  We can save lives now, because we
studied it.  We are finding out a lot of information we didn't know a
long time ago.  And without science, you would have never got your
letter here on the net.
But as for science and religion, religion has not really pointed out a
ton of fact.  Actually, no more has been given to us through religion
than we have in science.  Religion DOES tell us to read the Bible.  It
TELLS us that what they are saying is right.  I understand that there
are some scientists out there who are stuck on science, but there are
a lot of them out there saying, "We are trying to prove with fact, not
knowing at this time what really is right."
Bibles have changed throughout time, and I don't think you can say
that the Bible is right.  Look at how many different versions there
are out there...  Which one is right?  It had to be translated from
the original language into something understandable for all languages,
are all the words EXACTLY defined?  Look at how many definitions a lot
of the Bibles print at the bottom of the pages.  Which definition is
TRULY correct?  If they said 'wine' then they better mean 'wine' not
some obscure form of (from what someone told me (forgive me if I am
off base)) grape juice type drink.
The Bible is a great story of a great man, but it was written by man,
translated by man, and being read by man.  Look at all the spots for
error.  Science is out there to figure out fact.  And if you are a
true believer in God (or a being), let them look for the answer...
they can only prove you right...
                        Erin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Creating Your Own Organized Religion (And Possibly Gaining Prophets)
                                Erin -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!uoft02.utoledo.edu!bgsuvax!gagen
From: [e-mail] (kathleen gagen)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 00:49:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.paranormal
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
Lines: 37
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3479 alt.alien.visitors:2634 sci.skeptic:16768 talk.religion.newage:7390

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Bear Giles):
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Magnusson) writes:
>>
>>the first and still classical studies was of moths in a coalmining district in
>>Great Britain. They were previously white, which allowed them to hide against
>>the predominately white treetrunks, but became black as the pollution
>>blackened the tree trunks. In case you choose to missunderstand me, the moths
>>are now *born* black.
>>
>>Peter Magnusson
>
> I read somewhere (Stephen Jay Gould?) that this is not a proper example of
> evolution.  There have _always_ been dark and light moths, in much the same
> way that Caucasian populations have blue and brown eyes.

true

>
> Selectively kill off anyone with blue eyes for a number of generations and
> you'll see many more people with brown eyes, but humans will not have evolved
> towards brown eyes.  Stop killing the blue-eyed people, killing brown-eyed
> people instead, and the number of blue-eyed people will rise rapidly.
>
If you did this you would, in fact have an evolutionary change in the human
population (as you do in the moths).  Evolution has been defined
as a change in gene frequencies within a population.  You would have
accomplished this.

Kathi

------
Kathleen Pausic Gagen
Dept. of Biological Sciences
Bowling Green State University
Bowling Green Ohio, 43402

[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 17:08:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bill Holloway) writes:
>
>     Come on, folks.  There are no alien visitors.

Cute answer #1:  You're right, they're not alien, they're extradimensional.

Cute answer #2:  Come on, Bill.  There's no point in harassing a newsgroup.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 17:11:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 24

[I'm not going to continue this bullshit of posting into seven or eight
newsgroups!]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (kathleen gagen) writes:
>From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Gordon Fitch):
>> Why do they always have California falling into the sea?  I've
>> been watching it for a number of years now and it hasn't done a
>> god-damned thing, except sit there and get dusty.  You would
>> think if it were going to fall into the sea, it would have made
>> some kind of a move in that direction by now.
>
>The San Andreas fault runs through California.  It is thought by geologists
>and seismologists to be beh boundry between two tectonic plates.  When these
>two plates move with respect to each other an earthquake occurs.

Yes, we all know that (I hope!), but that doesn't mean it's going to fall
into the sea.  It doesn't even mean it's going to separate from the
mainland in anyone's lifetime.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ib0c+
From: [e-mail] (Ivan Manuel Bou)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Puerto Rican sitings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 02:19:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Junior, IM - H&SS Track, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 19
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

No offense but I have lived in Puerto Rico all of my life and my family
is always there and i'm just out here for college, and we have never
seen any ufo's I don't know anybody who has seen any UFO's and THERE ARE
NOT A LOT OF OCCULT ELEMENTS VOODOO OR THAT SHIT IN THE SOCIETY YOU MUST
BE THINKING OF FUCKING HAITI OR SOMETHING YOU DICKWAD.

There has been none of that shit in the papers because the papers in PR
are pretty decent and respectable and they wouldn't publish that CRAP
anyway.

##############################################################################
#   This is Ivan M. Bou wishing you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.  #
#          What do you say, it isn't Christmas, well I don't care.           #
##############################################################################

Greed is good.

Gordon Gecko
Movie "Wall Street"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!mtxinu!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Which kind?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 91 23:28:57 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 22
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

Eric "JUICE" Fritzius writes:

>1st Kind--Seeing a UFO
>
>2nd Kind--Seeing a UFO that is very close/landed
>
>3rd Kind--Seeing a UFO that is very close/landed and meeting its
>pilot/pilots/E.T.'s/etc
>
>Correct me if I'm wrong.

Well you forgot two.

4th Kind -- Going for a ride.

5th Kind -- (Earth) Human initiated contact.

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!linus!linus!tympani!gpivar
From: [e-mail] (Greg Pivarnik)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Lambda Radiation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 10:31:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va
Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: tympani.mitre.org

May-be its some sort of homosexual thing. (Lambda and the pink
triangle being current use symbols for homosexuality).
Anybody heard of pink triangle radiation?
--
Greg
--
"I dream therefore I am."
--
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Dinse)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,talk.bizarre,alt.sex,alt.angst
Subject: Re: Lambda Radiation
Summary: Lambda - - - Kill Your TV
Keywords: Lambda
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 04:23:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: ESKIMO NORTH [phone] SEATTLE WA.
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Dinse) writes:
> >
> >     Also, are any of our human activities (nuclear reactors, nuclear bomb
> >tests, computer monitors) emitting Lambda radiation and if so how do we
> >correct it?
>
> 1)  Kill your TV.  I suggest defenestration.  Make a tape of that fun
>     act and then throw the TAPE out the window too!

     Actually I did this with a number of TV's.  Took one old Zenith that was
always a headache out on the patio, turned it upside down, plugged it into a
long extension cord and turned it on.  Hosed it down while operating.  Who
says water and electricity don't mix?  Another ancient intermittant RCA got
accidentally dropped down two flights of stairs when I moved out of an
apartment (concrete stairs).  But I must keep my present television intact for
watching re-runs of My Favorite Martian and Star Trek (old and new).
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 05:59:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 35
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3480 alt.alien.visitors:2641 sci.skeptic:16775 talk.religion.newage:7392

[e-mail] (Kevin D. Quitt) writes:

: > We have
: >yet to see a mouse being turned into a rat.
:
:     True, but we have seen some species of animals produce other
: species, as defined by the fact that they can't interbreed.  Same for a
: number of plant species.
Even if you can prove that you can change a mouse into a rat, with
drugs, or x-rays or whatever, it still would not prove that the rat
and the mouse originally came to life by evolution.
Probably you would have to manipulate the genes in the mouse, or
something, to produce the rat, but such a manipulation would never
occur outside of the laboratory. Even if you could prove that you
could change any animal, into any other, by gene manipulation, you
would only show just that, but you would still not show what the
original gene came from, how it came into beeing.

Maybe you could take a Rolls-Royce car, dismount it and produce a
Cadillac, by a lot of mechanic work. That would only show that those
two cars are made out of similar materials (iron, plastic, etc.). It
would still not show where the original Rolls-Royce came from.


: >  If it is accepted that the universe was once only a seed, why then,
: >must everything else be logical?
:
:     Who accepts this?  And who accepts that the universe is logical?

Many people do. Interestingly enough, they don't believe in evolution,
since to belive in evolution, you have to throw out logic.
--
Per Lindqvist

Internet: [e-mail]   Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 05:42:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 55
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3481 alt.alien.visitors:2642 sci.skeptic:16776 talk.religion.newage:7393

[e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:
: beleave it. In laboratories, experiments are made with flies and mice
: where they are exposed to huge amounts of x-rays - but what does
: it prove? - that less than 1% of all mutations are to the better, and
: that the species are very stabile (not likely to changes). We have
: yet to see a mouse being turned into a rat. Of course
: one could always argue, that the enourmous amount of time it took
: before man appered could have accomplished anything; but isn't that
: a matter of belief?

Step 0) There is nothing
Step 1) something magic happens during a few billion years
Step 2) We are here and now.

Is not the scientic theory wonderful?

Ok, whe can refine step 2 to:
    1.1 Something magic happens
    1.2 There is a planet without anything
    1.3 Something magic happens
    1.4 There are humans

So the evolution story actually boils down to:
Did something magic happen by itself, or did a person do some magic?

Now, there is no scientific indication whatsoever that nothing can do
anything, so is it not more logical that someone did something?

There is also not scientific indication whatsoever that anything can
appear out of nothing.

Finally out of our own experience it is always someone causing
something to happen. If the someone is not present, the forces of
nature is only breaking down what is there. (The wind, earthquakes,
rain, etc. etc.)

Logic thus shows us the principle: Constructions are always created by
someone.
Example are all the constructions made by humans. Left by themselves,
for a few thousand years, there will be just dust left.

But the "supreme construction", which is so compilated that we cannot
even figure out how it works, after thousands of years of research, is
not constructed by someone? The parts of nature, the living entities,
are so intricately constructed that it is amazing.

It completely contradicts all our knowledge that this complication
is created by random "chance" out of nothing.

How can anyone belive in it?

--
Per Lindqvist

Internet: [e-mail]   Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 06:08:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3482 alt.alien.visitors:2643 sci.skeptic:16777 talk.religion.newage:7394

[e-mail] (Scott T Roberts) writes:

: We should not contradict the experts on a subject unless we are
: as experienced in the subject. We should also not claim knowledge
: of what the experts say unless we have taken the time to *know*
: what the experts are saying.

Still the scientist say that the universe was not created and that God
does not exists, although it is not their field of expertise, and
it contradicts all theological knowledge. Maybe they should leave that
for those who know the science of God and the creation.

Like a tree grows from a small plant, into something completely
different, the big tree, but does not really evolve in its growth, the
so called "evolution" can also be a sign of a natural, planned, growth
of the number of species. It does not really contradict creation.
--
Per Lindqvist

Internet: [e-mail]   Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332
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From: [e-mail] (Eric Rescorla)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 12:17:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: Rescorla for himself.
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Nntp-Posting-Host: rtnmr.chem.yale.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Even if you can prove that you can change a mouse into a rat, with
>drugs, or x-rays or whatever, it still would not prove that the rat
>and the mouse originally came to life by evolution.
>Probably you would have to manipulate the genes in the mouse, or
>something, to produce the rat, but such a manipulation would never
>occur outside of the laboratory. Even if you could prove that you
>could change any animal, into any other, by gene manipulation, you
>would only show just that, but you would still not show what the
>original gene came from, how it came into beeing.
That's true.

>Many people do. Interestingly enough, they don't believe in evolution,
>since to belive in evolution, you have to throw out logic.
This is an interesting thing to throw out here. Considering
it's unsubstantiate(and also just plain wrong.) You care to
at least substantiate it?
-Ekr


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431, Honda CM400 rider           [e-mail]
Yale University Department of Chemistry             [e-mail]
"No his mind is not for rent--to any God or government." Peart/Dubois
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From: [e-mail] (Eric Rescorla)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 12:22:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: Rescorla for himself.
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>[e-mail] (Scott T Roberts) writes:
>Still the scientist say that the universe was not created and that God
>does not exists, although it is not their field of expertise, and
>it contradicts all theological knowledge.
The question of whether or not the universe was created is a scientific,
not theological question. This is probably not true for that of whether
or not God exists. The question of whether the universe has been
created has been considered and rejected because it is a scientific
issue and it is wrong.


>Maybe they should leave that
>for those who know the science of God and the creation.
Your so-called science of God and creation is premised upon detailed
assumptions about the existence of God, and is thus useless for
showing that God exists.


>so called "evolution" can also be a sign of a natural, planned, growth
>of the number of species. It does not really contradict creation.
I don't see what your disagreement is. If you agree that organisms
developed much as scientists say, but just say it's not evolution,
but planned growth, then where do we disagree. I care about the story,
I don't care if you call it ferble glup or evolution.
-Ekr

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431, Honda CM400 rider           [e-mail]
Yale University Department of Chemistry             [e-mail]
"No his mind is not for rent--to any God or government." Peart/Dubois
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Puerto Rican sitings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 02:26:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 79

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (edward.w.mcfarland) writes:
>I spoke to a friend who is from Puerto Rico and talks to his family weekly.
>He says that while the wave of UFO sitings have been news for 8 or 9 months
>the officials there are downplaying the whole affair. He says that this is
>because the population has many occult elements (voodoo adherents, etc.)
>and even a hint of official acknowlegement would dirve these elements crazy.
>
>He said that the local newspapers barely mention the events there but the
>spanish language papers that are printed for the stateside Puerto Rican
>population have made a big story of it.  He hadn't heard about the F-14s
>disappearing though.
>
>He said he would inquire specifically on his next call home.
>
>
>     Ed McFarland                       We make history the old-fashioned
>     [e-mail]                  way, we revise it!
>
>*  Truth :  the most deadly weapon ever discovered by humanity. Capable of   *
>*  destroying entire perceptual sets, cultures, and realities. Outlawed by   *
>*  all governments everywhere. Possession is normally punishable by death.   *
>                                          -unknown (to me)

The company where I work at has quite a few Puerto Rican families there, and
since most of the individuals know I'm "into UFO's" have been keeping me updatedfor some time now.

The UFO's (OVNI's in Spanish) are not a new phenomenon to the residents of the
Laguna Cartagena area of Lajas. Actually, Puerto Rico's UFO flap began in 1967
and has continued to this day. Seems like the UFO's have been sighted arising
FROM the lagoon in the wildlife preserve (Laguna Cartagena) in the moutainous
region of Lajas..the UFO's put on a regular show to the townspeople and there
have been MANY sightings witnessed by crowds of people. The _latest_ news is
that the Major of Lajas sent a letter to President Bush asking him to please
investigate the many sightings. One of my fellow co-workers spoke with relativesin PR last weekend and they have informed him that the FBI has virtually sealed
off the wildlife preserve area which the greatest amount of sightings have been
occurring.

One of the State Section directors for MUFON lives just down the road from
me and he gave me some newspapers articles from one of the papers in San Juan
to pass to individuals at my workplace to translate into English. I *have* got
about 5 of the 17 articles completely translated and will be posting them
here shortly. ONE of the articles shows a 6" x 6" Black and white photo with
13 people on a balcony and sitting on deck chairs watching a UFO in the
background. It is truly amazing. Judging from the posture of the people in
the photo, they look very relaxed and not at all "freaked out"...they look
like they are just taking it all in..the foreground shows a mountain..the
caption on the bottom says that the picture was taken around Sept 12th. The
photo does NOT appear in my opinion to be hoaxed..it looks genuine. The UFO
is oblongated, similar to a cigar shape, with what appears to be a turret
on top.

Just for shits and grins..I took the photo over to the copier, made a good
copy and scanned it into a Mac IIcx and made a TIFF out of it..If I can
modem it off the Mac to one of the DOS machines at work, I'll uuencode
it and upload it here so you guys can have a look.


I have quite a high interest in the PR sightings because in August I attended
a UFO conference in which noted investigator, Jorge Martin, presented an
incredible slide/video presentation of UFO's over PR...one of the slides
that left an impression with me is that of a HUGE saucer shaped craft that
was photographed with a jet fighter next to it. The craft was at _least_
10x larger than the jet itself...

The skeptics can scoff all they want..but there is definately something going
on in the airspace over Puerto Rico and it _ain't_ "military testing".

Meanwhile, people at work who have relatives in PR, continue to keep me
informed about the latest goings on there..there have been reports of
abductions...reports of "little greys" being spotted..

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!gatech!emory!nastar!phardie
From: [e-mail] (Pete Hardie)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 13:11:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.paranormal
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA
Lines: 19
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3485 alt.alien.visitors:2647 sci.skeptic:16780 talk.religion.newage:7398

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>It completely contradicts all our knowledge that this complication
>is created by random "chance" out of nothing.
>
>How can anyone belive in it?

Religious people are fond of this argument.  I have a question -

God is often claimed to be 'beyond human comprehension', which implies
complexity.

Now apply your first sentence quoted above to God.  How did God arise
out of nothing?

How can anyone believe in it?

--
Pete Hardie                             ...!emory!nastar!phardie
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc.      (voice) [phone]
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From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 )
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 14:47:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Telegraph Row)
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bear Giles) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Magnusson) writes:
>>
>>This is an old argument that isn't valid and never has been. There are several
>>documented cases of organisms evolving within an observable time space. One of
>>the first and still classical studies was of moths in a coalmining district in
>>Great Britain. They were previously white, which allowed them to hide against
>>the predominately white treetrunks, but became black as the pollution
>>blackened the tree trunks. In case you choose to missunderstand me, the moths
>>are now *born* black.
>>
>>Peter Magnusson
>
>I read somewhere (Stephen Jay Gould?) that this is not a proper example of
>evolution.  There have _always_ been dark and light moths, in much the same
>way that Caucasian populations have blue and brown eyes.
>
>Selectively kill off anyone with blue eyes for a number of generations and
>you'll see many more people with brown eyes, but humans will not have evolved
>towards brown eyes.  Stop killing the blue-eyed people, killing brown-eyed
>people instead, and the number of blue-eyed people will rise rapidly.
>
>Bear Giles
>[e-mail]

I think the Moth study was to point out Natural Selection (Darwin), which is
a part of evolution.  What I believe Natural Selection means is that species
have to adapt to their environment, and those with characteristics that do not
allow them to adapt, will perish (i.e. White moths didn't adapt to their
new environment, while black moths were perfectly suited to it).

Joe
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!uupsi!gdc!foster
From: [e-mail] (Sharon Foster)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 15:49:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: General DataComm, Middlebury CT
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (kathleen gagen) writes:
>> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>>
>> Why do they always have California falling into the sea?  I've
>> been watching it for a number of years now and it hasn't done a
>> god-damned thing, except sit there and get dusty.  You would
>> think if it were going to fall into the sea, it would have made
>> some kind of a move in that direction by now.
>
> The San Andreas fault runs through California.  It is thought by geologists
> and seismologists to be beh boundry between two tectonic plates.  When these
> two plates move with respect to each other an earthquake occurs.
>>
>> To hell with California.  I want to see a prediction where Iowa
>> falls into the sea.
>
> To the best of my knowledge, there are no major fault lines in this region.
> It doesn't take precognition to predict the EVENTUAL separation of the west
> coast of california from the rest of the continent...mearly an understanding
> of plate tectonics.  An explaination should be found in most modern
> geology textbooks.
>
> Kathi
>

Wait! Don't tell me! Let me guess!  You're an engineering student,
right?  HEY! KATHI!  Get your nose out of the books for a minute!
You need a sense-of-humor transplant.

--
/* Sharon Foster....First Generation Trekkie  *      [e-mail]        */
/*   These are my own Biased Personal Opinions (tm) and no one else's!     */
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!uupsi!gdc!foster
From: [e-mail] (Sharon Foster)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Oct 91 16:02:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: General DataComm, Middlebury CT
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 [e-mail] (Scott T Roberts) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> E.F. Anderson writes:
>>>>
>>>> You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.
>>>                               ^^^^^^^^^
>>  In the original posting, I reacted to the statement that we
>>are descendants from fish (reptiles!!!). I do not beleave that this
>>is proven, and as long as there are sound arguments against it, I won't
>>beleave it.
>  ^^^^^^^
> I am not an expert either, but I'm not aware of any sound arguements
                                                            **********
arguements -> arguments

> against any major tenants of evolution.
                    *******

tenants -> tenets

>
> beleave->believe
>
>  >In laboratories, experiments are made with flies and mice
>>where they are exposed to huge amounts of x-rays - but what does
>>it prove? - that less than 1% of all mutations are to the better, and
>>that the species are very stabile (not likely to changes). We have
>                            ^^^^^^^                ^^^^^^
> stable    change
> It proves alot.
            ****

alot -> a lot

>
>>yet to see a mouse being turned into a rat. Of course
>>one could always argue, that the enourmous amount of time it took
>>before man appered could have accomplished anything; but isn't that
>             ^^^^^^^
>>a matter of belief?
>>
> appeared
> No. I believe evolution has been demonstrated without xrays in many ways.
> St. Bernards and Poodles are still considered to be in the same species
> only because of tradition. There are many species that are more similar
> to each other and are not considered to be in the same species.

You wanna run those last two sentences by us again?

>
> I'm not sure that there is any difference between "rats" and "mice".
> Maybe you mean changing the species of mice.  I think of some
> dogs as being no more than "rats" and others seem not far from being
> horses.
>
> We should not contradict the experts on a subject unless we are
> as experienced in the subject. We should also not claim knowledge
> of what the experts say unless we have taken the time to *know*
> what the experts are saying. The best way is to read what the experts
> are saying in their condensed works (encyclopedias and textbooks).
> I have never read an encyclopedia or respected textbook that said
> evolution was anything other than a fact. I suppose there could be a
> conspiracy in place or that scientists are not being critical
> enough of evolution, but I doubt it.


And you, Scott, should be a little slower to criticize other
people's spelling when your own is less than perfect.

--
/* Sharon Foster....First Generation Trekkie  *      [e-mail]        */
/*   These are my own Biased Personal Opinions (tm) and no one else's!     */
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!gtx!al
From: [e-mail] (Alan Filipski)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 15:38:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Alan Filipski)
Organization: GTX Corporation, Phoenix
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (kathleen gagen) writes:
#From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Gordon Fitch):
#> To hell with California.  I want to see a prediction where Iowa
#> falls into the sea.
#
#To the best of my knowledge, there are no major fault lines in this region.
#It doesn't take precognition to predict the EVENTUAL separation of the west
#coast of california from the rest of the continent...mearly an understanding
#of plate tectonics.  An explaination should be found in most modern
#geology textbooks.

Yes, but the west coast of California is moving *northwards*.  This
has nothing to do with "falling into the sea".



  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 ( Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 8836 N. 23rd Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona 85021, USA )
 ( {decvax,hplabs,uunet!amdahl,nsc}!sun!sunburn!gtx!al         [phone] )
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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From: [e-mail] (Major Havok)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fox's UFO Program
Message-ID: <1991Oct24.151029.6971@[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 15:10:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: @[e-mail]
Organization: Oregon State University, CS Dept.
Lines: 34
Nntp-Posting-Host: jacobs.cs.orst.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David M. Schiff) writes:

>It seems to me  the obvious thing to do would be to analyze it.
>It could be checked for any signs of radiation or any strange properties.
>Perhaps a chemical anaysis could also be done. It strikes me as odd
>that someone who believes they might have an implant would not do
>these things to see if that's what it is -- rather than an old piece
>of glass! (Since the program didn't mention anything about an analysis,
>I'm assuming nothing was done.) Very Strange.

  But they did mention that it had been analyzed. They did a chemical
analysis of it I believe. Let me fire up the ol' VCR and check it out...
They stated that "the object is made of silicon and trace metals". On the
report sheet that they display it says something about "Glass overall 25K
39W" or something close to that (couldn't really read the 39W part too
clearly). And unless I am misinterpreting the graph that was displayed
on the same report, it has silicon (I assume) displayed on the 7th graph
line (there are no appearant numbers marking each unit on the graph), calcium
measures at 1 'unit', sodium measures at about 1/5th of a unit, magnesium
measures at 1/5th of a unit also, silver measures at 1/5th of a unit also,
and I'm having dificulty making out the last element, but it appears to be
gallium which measures at about 1/8th of a unit. That's all that I can make
out from the video.

  Oh, well, after reviewing that section of the tape once more I realized
there were two other elements listed, they are aluminum measuring at about
1/2 of a unit, and what appears to be either copper or cobalt measuring at
about 1/8th of a unit.

--
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Chris Wood                |  "If you can't convince them, confuse them." |
| [e-mail]  |                                   -unknown   |
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
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From: [e-mail] (James W. Meritt)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 16:21:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
}Now, there is no scientific indication whatsoever that nothing can do
}anything, so is it not more logical that someone did something?
}
}There is also not scientific indication whatsoever that anything can
}appear out of nothing.

Boy, are you in for a bad suprise if you ever look at QM & virtual
particles & Hawkins radiation and find out that when you make a
"scientific indication" statement that you are 100% wrong.

Makes the rest of you post so much more believable to know that you
do not know what you are talking about.


Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not necessarily
represent those opinions of this or any other organization.  The facts,
however, simply are and do not "belong" to anyone.
    [e-mail] or [e-mail] or meritt%aplvm.BITNET
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From: [e-mail] (A Kashko)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Astral travel test update
Summary: This week's info
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 10:26:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Edinburgh University
Lines: 45
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Subject: This week's info
To: "A. Kashko" <[e-mail]>,
    Windsphire <[e-mail]>,
    Jesse Mundis <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 91 13:17:28 PDT
Sender: oresoft![e-mail]

I'm reasonably sure this failed to post.  News generatoed an error on
writing.


This week I seemed to have a greater affinity for sleep than for
anything that seemed to approach an OOBE.  Did start getting
much more intense dreams, though.  I suspect that lucid dreaming and
OOBE might be similar in inducement.  Guess that's another test.

Did find the book "Journeys Out of the Body: 30 Days to the Most
Incredible Experience of Your Life" (or something like that), but not
the ones recommended.  I have skimmed through it, but have not yet had
the time to examine it in depth or try to "use" it.

Sometimes it's discouraging not having results.  I get tempted to do
things that would invalidate the test in order to validate my own
feelings, like ask questions.  So.. for the record (although I expect no
response at this time, since I have NOT declared that I have even
managed an OBE) I'd like to stae some "feelings" I'm having, that have
absolutely NO basis other than that they're here:

(predictions:)
I keep getting the feeling that:
   The "board" I'm shooting for is black, and mounted vertically.
   The symbols thereon are ecru (white/yellow).
   A. Kashsko is male.
   The leaves are on the ground, not swept/raked up, and are mainly oak
       (at the university).


As I said.  Don't respond yet, at least to me, it would mess with the
results of the test as given, but the info is given for the record, in
case telepathic or remote viewing turns out to work for me better than
OOBE.  :=)

--
Richard Johnson     [e-mail]      [e-mail]
Ce pouvoir ce savoir.
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From: [e-mail] (Major Havok)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Evolution
Message-ID: <1991Oct24.164736.8764@[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 16:47:36 GMT
Sender: @[e-mail]
Organization: C.S. Dept, Oregon State University, Corvallis
Lines: 33
Nntp-Posting-Host: jacobs.cs.orst.edu


  I have read a few of the messages in this newsgroup about evolution, but I
haven't been able to follow the thread very accurately since I have had to
wade through hundreds of messages the last few days after being absent from
this group for a while. But I wanted to contribute to this conversation
anyway.

  A while back I viewed a program about evolution on a PBS channel I believe
(unfortunately I do not know the name of the program or the names of the
people who conducted the experiments that are about to be described). Basicly
what they were trying to do was to determine if the ingredients neccessary for
life would be created if certain conditions were met. I do not know if they
expected life to actually form or if they were just looking for the
development of amino acids, etc. I can't remember all of the components of
the experiment that they performed, but they tried to duplicate the conditions
that would have existed on earth during the time that life may have started.
(They provided electircal current to simulate lightning, heat and volcanic
rock, water, minerals, etc.). They found that almost immediately a very basic
form of life (or predecessor to life) had been created. They didn't classify
the single-celled entities as being a life form since they did not possess
any DNA, but the cellular membrane of these newly formed entities was
definitely similar to the membranes of todays simple organisms. These were
not just useless globs of cellular tissue, they did in fact reproduce by
budding and were capable of utilizing sunlight to generate food. I believe
they also had the ability to move about or later evolved to be able to move
about, I could be wrong on that point though. I wish I knew the name of the
program so that I can verify this claim.

--
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Chris Wood                |  "If you can't convince them, confuse them." |
| [e-mail]  |                                   -unknown   |
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ukc!dcl-cs!gdt!bond!strath-cs!glasgow!degnans
From: [e-mail] (Santa Claus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: X the bodydigger is coming
Summary: coming
Keywords: coming
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 14:36:03 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.
Lines: 1

X the bodydigger is coming back.....
Path: ns-mx!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 18:52:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
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Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius

[e-mail] (Bear Giles) writes:

> I read somewhere (Stephen Jay Gould?) that this is not a proper example of
> evolution.  There have _always_ been dark and light moths, in much the same
> way that Caucasian populations have blue and brown eyes.
>
> Selectively kill off anyone with blue eyes for a number of generations and
> you'll see many more people with brown eyes, but humans will not have evolved
> towards brown eyes.  Stop killing the blue-eyed people, killing brown-eyed
> people instead, and the number of blue-eyed people will rise rapidly.

But that IS evolution.  The composition of the gene pool has changed
because of environmental pressure.  There used to be mostly white and
now there are mostly black.

What hasn't happened (yet) is speciation, where the black moths from
the polluted region become unable to mate with the white ones from
unpolluted regions and therefore become a different species.  My
_guess_ is that it will happen, assuming current conditions prevail --
let's wait a few thousand years or so and take another look.

--
Grant Edwards                                  |Yow! I know th'MAMBO!! I have
Rosemount Inc.                                 |a TWO-TONE CHEMISTRY SET!!
                                               |
[e-mail]                  |
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Gulf Breeze And Cia/dod Plots
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 20:56:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 17
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 24 Oct 91 00:03:58 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:


> Isn't it odd that semi-decent UFO photographs and footage are now
> showing up at the same time that technology has improved enough to make
> the fake photographs and footage indistinguishable from the real
> thing?

    From what I've seen of the Gulf Breeze video, no such technology was
required.  The video camera appears to be the most sophisticated piece of
hardware involved.  The UFO looks like a model on control lines.  As for the
only piece of Belgian video, it shows a triangular aircraft with three lights.
 I see no reason to doubt the validity of this footage. There really are
triangular aircraft in existence, some that have been announced to the public
and others that we know about only by information leaks and incidental
sightings. Nothing in the recording indicates that the object is anything
beyond current technology.
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Goehring)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 21:38:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
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Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
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In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 22 Oct 91 18:14:09 GMT

[e-mail] (kathleen gagen) writes:

>[e-mail] (Gordon Fitch) writes:

>>To hell with California.  I want to see a prediction where Iowa
>>falls into the sea.

>To the best of my knowledge, there are no major fault lines in this
>region.

New Madrid fault.  The last major quake there (New Madrid is in
southwestern Illinois) rang church bells in Boston.  Some seismologist
predict that the New Madrid fault has the potential to generate a
quake on the order of a 9.0 or 10.0 on the Richter scale.

>It doesn't take precognition to predict the EVENTUAL separation of
>the west coast of california from the rest of the continent...mearly
>an understanding of plate tectonics.  An explaination should be found
>in most modern geology textbooks.

Since the San Andreas fault is a transverse fault, California isn't
going to fall into the sea.  Actually, the southern coast is slowly
moving toward Alaska.
--
You all look like happy campers to me.  Happy campers you are, happy
campers you have been, and, as far as I am concerned, happy campers you
will always be.
    -- Vice President Dan Quayle
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From: [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 22:33:33 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
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Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3494 alt.alien.visitors:2660 sci.skeptic:16815 talk.religion.newage:7408

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:
>
>
>So the evolution story actually boils down to:
>Did something magic happen by itself, or did a person do some magic?
>
>There is also not scientific indication whatsoever that anything can
>appear out of nothing.
>
>Logic thus shows us the principle: Constructions are always created by
>someone.
>Example are all the constructions made by humans. Left by themselves,
>for a few thousand years, there will be just dust left.
>
>It completely contradicts all our knowledge that this complication
>is created by random "chance" out of nothing.
>
>How can anyone belive in it?

There are two problems with your argument.  First,  why do you insist
that the universe arose out of nothing?  This is not part of the
scientific description.  It may be part of your religious description,
but you can't use that as an argument against science, since that is
what you are trying to prove.  Second,  it is not true that all
constructions must be made by humans.  Your argument is implicitly appealing
to the second law of thermodynamics ("there will be just dust left").
This appeal has been shown to be invalid.
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From: [e-mail] (Jacques Guy)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Lambda Radiation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 23:41:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 10




Nope, the Aliens know LISP. Do you know what LAMBDA
is in LISP? It's called "void" in C. Now you know
LAMBDA radiation is.

(But my Brazilian correspondent claims it's a
transmission error: it is really known all over
the galaxies as LAMBADA radiation).
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From: [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 16:48:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alan Quan) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
>|> >I reviewed some of Gordon-Micheal Scallion's predictions for between
>|> >now and the year 1997.  We are in for one hell of a ride!
>|>
>|> I'll say... :)
>|>
>|> >Within 24 months of the Eureka quakes, California, as we know it, will
>|> >begin to break up.  It will come to be known as the ``Isles of
>|> >California''.  The area to the east of the Hayward fault from Eureka
>|> >to Bakersfield will be inundated.  San Francisco north will be like an
>|> >island.  This will be the first of three major changes for California.
>|> >Oh yea, New York and Japan will go bye-bye.
>|>
>|> So, we have Japan, New York, and California falling beneath the sea
>|> like Atlantis did long ago. I find it interesting that you mention
>|> these three areas. Is anyone out there familiar with the magazine
>|> 'Master of Life' by Dick Sutphen? He sells a *fiction* newage book on
>|> tape in it called _Pisces Rising_ which tells about a spiritual
>|> commune called Autonomy. The leader predicts the fall of Japan, New
>|> York, and finally California, in that order, and by the end of the
>|> story (very entertaining, I highly recommend it) the first two have
>|> already bit it. Perhaps Dick, the authour, looked at Scallion's
>|> predictions to get his inspiration and ideas?
>|>
>
>I missed the original posting on this topic so excuse me if I repeat
>anything previously stated.  It's interesting to note that Chet Snow's
>book _Mass_Dreams_of_the_Future_ also has predictions about the period
>1997-98 that say that much of California and all of Japan will be
>submerged into the Pacific due to severe earthquakes and volcanic
>activity.  Also predicted are other natural catastrophes including
>extreme climatic changes that will cause freezing temperatures in
>what's left of the Southwest.  These predictions are based on
>information obtained from future-life progressions of a few selected
>subjects under hypnosis, conducted by the author and Helen Wambach.
>The predictions are indirectly supported by documented progressions of
>thousands of other subjects.
>
>
>
>Alan Quan     [e-mail]

  Interesting enough, some time ago I read about a tribe of indians
living in central-america that have a *written* record of everything
that had happend to the tribe for the last 15000 years!
  They talk of catastrophes for some 12000 years ago, very
similar to the ones described above. They were caused by
a war between two races of gods (aliens) living on the earth then;
the war supposedly killed everything on the planet Venus. The tribe
survived because they hid in caves deep beneath the earth.
  Also, findings show that the inkaes (misspelled??) were very
attached to Venus! Platon dates the dissaperance of Atlantis
(probabely Atlantis) to circa 10.000 BC.

  Predictions of California and New York being submerging into the
ocean was made already in the 1920's by a man called Edgar Cayce.
He also spoke of whole parts of Europe dissappering! There would be a
forewarning of these events (not Eureka though!). The prophecies
(also misspelled!!) by Nostradamus, who lived in the 16th century,
speaks of great disasters by the end of this century!

- Just a couple of examples.

Erik F. Andersen, Denmark

Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!gatech!bloom-beacon!eru!kth.se!sunic!seunet!sics.se!sics.se!psm
From: [e-mail] (Peter Magnusson)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 21:37:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: int i=0; while(i<4) putchar(((3*i-7)*i-6)*i+++83);
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In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Wed, 23 Oct 1991 23:42:39 GMT


Wow! Judging by most of what I'd read (I'm new to this group), the noise
on this line was high. But to my amazement people responded to my posting
sensibly. I'm suitably impressed. Let's hope the bible pushers stay away
from this thread.

[e-mail] (Bear Giles) writes:

 [...] this is not a proper example of evolution.  There have _always_ been
 dark and light moths, in much the same way that Caucasian populations have
 blue and brown eyes. Selectively kill off anyone with blue eyes for a number
 of generations and you'll see many more people with brown eyes, but humans
 will not have evolved towards brown eyes.

[e-mail] (kathleen gagen) responded:

 If you did this you would, in fact have an evolutionary change in the human
 population (as you do in the moths).  Evolution has been defined
 as a change in gene frequencies within a population.  You would have
 accomplished this.

[e-mail] (Grant Edwards) also responded:

 But that IS evolution.  The composition of the gene pool has changed
 because of environmental pressure.  There used to be mostly white and
 now there are mostly black.

 What hasn't happened (yet) is speciation, where the black moths from
 the polluted region become unable to mate with the white ones from
 unpolluted regions and therefore become a different species.  My
 _guess_ is that it will happen, assuming current conditions prevail --
 let's wait a few thousand years or so and take another look.

joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) notes:

 I think the Moth study was to point out Natural Selection (Darwin), which is
 a part of evolution.  What I believe Natural Selection means is that species
 have to adapt to their environment, and those with characteristics that do not
 allow them to adapt, will perish (i.e. White moths didn't adapt to their
 new environment, while black moths were perfectly suited to it).


Maybe these arguments have been turned over and over here before, and maybe
it has no place in this group, but I think they'r interesting.

Bear, if you *do* change the frequency of distribution of *exisiting* genes,
then you must agree - as kathleen points out - that this is an evolutionary
change. However, as you might argue, this is not the same thing as a
*positive* *mutation*. But if you agree that mutations - once present in the
form of variations - can be enforced, and if I could convince you that
mutations can *appear*, then wouldn't that settle the issue?

Mutations *do* appear - I am different from you, and clearly I can do some
things better than you and vice versa. If these changes can be enforced, as
the case of the moths indicate, then we're done.

One might argue that these changes are always "present", but this is obviously
not the case: fossils of our ancestors have a different frequency distribution
of physical characteristics.

pSm
--
Peter Magnusson
Swedish Institute of Computer Science
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (T. Gaetz)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 03:17:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2664 alt.paranormal:3497

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:

>  Interesting enough, some time ago I read about a tribe of indians
>living in central-america that have a *written* record of everything
>that had happend to the tribe for the last 15000 years!
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^
>  They talk of catastrophes for some 12000 years ago, very
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^
>similar to the ones described above. They were caused by
>a war between two races of gods (aliens) living on the earth then;
>the war supposedly killed everything on the planet Venus. The tribe
>survived because they hid in caves deep beneath the earth.

Do you have any references for this?  How were these records
and the events dated - i.e. how can it be determined that the
catastrophes were really 12000 years ago rather than, say, 1500 years
ago?  What language are they in?

I am highly skeptical of claims of _written_ records extending over
15000 years.
--
Terry Gaetz   --   [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!unido!horga!reswi!cppob!schweik
From: [e-mail] (Martin Schweikert)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 08:24:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Private/FRG
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[e-mail] (Peter Magnusson) writes:

>>>>>> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:

[ ... ]

>                                                                        One of
>the first and still classical studies was of moths in a coalmining district in
>Great Britain. They were previously white, which allowed them to hide against
>the predominately white treetrunks, but became black as the pollution
>blackened the tree trunks. In case you choose to missunderstand me, the moths
>are now *born* black.

Sorry, but you are wrong. You surely mean "biston betularia" - actually
there were white AND black species first. Then, after the pollution effect,
the white ones were a pretty easy prey to birds which could see them at
the dark trees. The darker moths could not be seen so easy, so the white
ones got extinct, the dark ones survived.

This has nothing to do with evolution. It's just an example for natural
selection.

Martin
--
/-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Dipl-Dok. Martin Schweikert                 Mail: [e-mail] |
| Essener Strasse 57                               Fax: [phone] |
| D-4200 Oberhausen/Germany                      Phone: [phone] |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|    My life is based on two things: Belief in Christ and Murphy's Law    |
\-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewse!harryo
From: [e-mail] (harold.r.holm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Puerto Rican sitings
Summary: Who said anything about voodoo??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 07:46:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ivan Manuel Bou) writes:
> No offense but I have lived in Puerto Rico all of my life and my family
> is always there and i'm just out here for college, and we have never
> seen any ufo's I don't know anybody who has seen any UFO's and THERE ARE
> NOT A LOT OF OCCULT ELEMENTS VOODOO OR THAT SHIT IN THE SOCIETY YOU MUST
> BE THINKING OF FUCKING HAITI OR SOMETHING YOU DICKWAD.
>
> There has been none of that shit in the papers because the papers in PR
> are pretty decent and respectable and they wouldn't publish that CRAP
> anyway.


Voodoo?  Voodoo????  So who said anything originally about voodoo?
Can we also presume this person knows everyone on the island??

Besides, for a person who also touts being "decent and respectable", his
own language sure doesn't live up much to those concepts.

H.R. Holm

**comments my own only, standard disclaimers, etc.
   reply to the newsgroup, not e-mail, please***
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!yang.earlham.edu!julianm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kathy and Channeling UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 05:16:42 GMT
Lines: 65

Path: yang.earlham.edu!julianm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kathy and Channeling UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 01:02:28 EST
Organization:
Lines: 47



<[e-mail]> writes that if we simply take the unprovable
without proof than we'll simply be dealing with another religion with
faith at its basis.

Well, it has been my experience that the basis of religion *is*
faith...even the mainline, high-rolling churches of the world (ie., Roman
Catholic, Anglican, etc...), for all their doctrine and dogma, will still
insist that the heart of the matter is faith.  I don't necessarily find
anything wrong with this.

But what is wrong is trying to shut out discussion in the name of faith.
This is what Kathy proposed about a week ago (in a posting no longer on
the newsgroup directory) when she patently refused to engage in discussion
and resorted to the old, petulant "This is my path and not yours; don't
tell me what to do."  The saner in this newsgroup recognized the specious
appeal of such "argument", which really was more akin to pronouncements
than proclamations of faith.

Mary Stanley asks why people like me bother reading Kathy's posting if
we're all out to discredit her.  If anything, I'm out to do the exact
opposite: to substantiate her argument/feelings through some sort of
dialogue, but a dialogue that goes beyond her proclamations of belief and
my mindless acceptance (or denial) of them.  This is the core of
intellectual life: debate, discussion, argument.  When we forsake this we
take the easy but treacherous path down to "feelings"-based
anti-intellectual demagoguery which posits that the mind and heart/spirit
are somehow necessarily mutually exclusive things.  This posits a
dualistic nature of humankind and I don't buy it.  It's too easy.  It's
too easy to believe that it's either heart or mind; black or white; up or
down; left or right; right or wrong.  Okay? It's just *too* easy.  The
difference between me and Kathy, however, is that for all my concrete
belief in this I'm not going to tell anyone who challenges me that this is
my belief and go suck eggs if you don't agree with me because, in effect,
"It's a faith thing; you wouldn't understand."


Julian/Felix
Send out the dogs!


P.S.  I apologize for any confusion--I did not follow the extraction
conventions because my terminal wouldn't let me.



    - Julian T-Cell (Lymphocyte) MC Superfly Cheez-Whiz Marsano
      ECMLVDC
    - Light Terminal Operator

        -== Earlham College MoonLight VAX Driving Corps ==-
         "Bad craziness, fast terminals, and nothing better to do."



Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!yang.earlham.edu!julianm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: A Minor Screw Up...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 05:28:23 GMT
Lines: 21

Hey there happy campers,

This is Julian from Yang and Earlham.  A note about my last three
postings: I apologize for taking up space here like this, but our
grllrkstf!@#$ VAX had most of us VAX Rats locked out for a while and
apparently has sent off two extra copies of my latest addition to "Re:
Kathy and Channeling UFOs".  The last one, I believe it has 67 lines, is
the one that was supposed to be sent.

Julian/Felix
Send out the dogs!

    - Julian T-Cell (Lymphocyte) MC Superfly Cheez-Whiz Marsano
      ECMLVDC
    - Light Terminal Operator

        -== Earlham College MoonLight VAX Driving Corps ==-
         "Bad craziness, fast terminals, and nothing better to do."



Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!unlinfo.unl.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!yang.earlham.edu!julianm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kathy and Channeling UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 05:57:50 GMT
Lines: 45

<[e-mail]> writes that if we simply take the unprovable
without proof than we'll simply be dealing with another religion with
faith at its basis.

Well, it has been my experience that the basis of religion *is*
faith...even the mainline, high-rolling churches of the world (ie., Roman
Catholic, Anglican, etc...), for all their doctrine and dogma, will still
insist that the heart of the matter is faith.  I don't necessarily find
anything wrong with this.

But what is wrong is trying to shut out discussion in the name of faith.
This is what Kathy proposed about a week ago (in a posting no longer on
the newsgroup directory) when she patently refused to engage in discussion
and resorted to the old, petulant "This is my path and not yours; don't
tell me what to do."  The saner in this newsgroup recognized the specious
appeal of such "argument", which really was more akin to pronouncements
than proclamations of faith.

Mary Stanley asks why people like me bother reading Kathy's posting if
we're all out to discredit her.  If anything, I'm out to do the exact
opposite: to substantiate her argument/feelings through some sort of
dialogue, but a dialogue that goes beyond her proclamations of belief and
my mindless acceptance (or denial) of them.  This is the core of
intellectual life: debate, discussion, argument.  When we forsake this we
take the easy but treacherous path down to "feelings"-based
anti-intellectual demagoguery which posits that the mind and heart/spirit
are somehow necessarily mutually exclusive things.  This posits a
dualistic nature of humankind and I don't buy it.  It's too easy.  It's
too easy to believe that it's either heart or mind; black or white; up or
down; left or right; right or wrong.  Okay? It's just *too* easy.  The
difference between me and Kathy, however, is that for all my concrete
belief in this I'm not going to tell anyone who challenges me that this is
my belief and go suck eggs if you don't agree with me because, in effect,
"It's a faith thing; you wouldn't understand."


Julian/Felix
Send out the dogs!


P.S.  I apologize for any confusion--I did not follow the extraction
conventions because my terminal wouldn't let me.



Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!unlinfo.unl.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!yang.earlham.edu!julianm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kathy and Channeling UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Oct 91 06:02:28 GMT
Lines: 47



<[e-mail]> writes that if we simply take the unprovable
without proof than we'll simply be dealing with another religion with
faith at its basis.

Well, it has been my experience that the basis of religion *is*
faith...even the mainline, high-rolling churches of the world (ie., Roman
Catholic, Anglican, etc...), for all their doctrine and dogma, will still
insist that the heart of the matter is faith.  I don't necessarily find
anything wrong with this.

But what is wrong is trying to shut out discussion in the name of faith.
This is what Kathy proposed about a week ago (in a posting no longer on
the newsgroup directory) when she patently refused to engage in discussion
and resorted to the old, petulant "This is my path and not yours; don't
tell me what to do."  The saner in this newsgroup recognized the specious
appeal of such "argument", which really was more akin to pronouncements
than proclamations of faith.

Mary Stanley asks why people like me bother reading Kathy's posting if
we're all out to discredit her.  If anything, I'm out to do the exact
opposite: to substantiate her argument/feelings through some sort of
dialogue, but a dialogue that goes beyond her proclamations of belief and
my mindless acceptance (or denial) of them.  This is the core of
intellectual life: debate, discussion, argument.  When we forsake this we
take the easy but treacherous path down to "feelings"-based
anti-intellectual demagoguery which posits that the mind and heart/spirit
are somehow necessarily mutually exclusive things.  This posits a
dualistic nature of humankind and I don't buy it.  It's too easy.  It's
too easy to believe that it's either heart or mind; black or white; up or
down; left or right; right or wrong.  Okay? It's just *too* easy.  The
difference between me and Kathy, however, is that for all my concrete
belief in this I'm not going to tell anyone who challenges me that this is
my belief and go suck eggs if you don't agree with me because, in effect,
"It's a faith thing; you wouldn't understand."


Julian/Felix
Send out the dogs!


P.S.  I apologize for any confusion--I did not follow the extraction
conventions because my terminal wouldn't let me.



Path: ns-mx!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!mailgzrz!w204zrz!hakiaahb
From: [e-mail] (Hakan Kayal)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: test
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 16:26:45 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 2
Nntp-Posting-Host: w204zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de


This is a simple Test for me. Ignore it!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!emory!att!cbnews!ewm
From: [e-mail] (edward.w.mcfarland)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Puerto Rican sitings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 17:10:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ivan Manuel Bou) writes:
>No offense but I have lived in Puerto Rico all of my life and my family
>is always there and i'm just out here for college, and we have never
>seen any ufo's I don't know anybody who has seen any UFO's and THERE ARE
>NOT A LOT OF OCCULT ELEMENTS VOODOO OR THAT SHIT IN THE SOCIETY YOU MUST
>BE THINKING OF FUCKING HAITI OR SOMETHING YOU DICKWAD.
>
>There has been none of that shit in the papers because the papers in PR
>are pretty decent and respectable and they wouldn't publish that CRAP
>anyway.
>
>##############################################################################
>#   This is Ivan M. Bou wishing you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.  #
>#          What do you say, it isn't Christmas, well I don't care.           #
>##############################################################################
>
>Greed is good.
>
>Gordon Gecko
>Movie "Wall Street"

The "DICKWAD" you are refering to is native Puerto Rican, has a second home
there and speaks to his family weekly. The "occult elements, voodoo etc."
was a verbatim statement he made to me when I read him the article from the
net. I would trust his characterization of the whole story (I'm sure he's
been around twice as long as you) and he's very skeptical.

And what CRAP (this guy YELLS alot, huh?) are you refering to?


     Ed McFarland                       We make history the old-fashioned
     [e-mail]                  way, we revise it!

*  Truth :  the most deadly weapon ever discovered by humanity. Capable of   *
*  destroying entire perceptual sets, cultures, and realities. Outlawed by   *
*  all governments everywhere. Possession is normally punishable by death.   *
                                          -unknown (to me)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!danwell
From: [e-mail] (Daniel A Ashlock)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 17:50:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Daniel A Ashlock)
Organization: Iowa State University
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3500 alt.alien.visitors:2673 sci.skeptic:16862 talk.religion.newage:7420

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Martin
Schweikert) writes:
>
> This has nothing to do with evolution. It's just an example for natural
> selection.
>
   You are stating that natural selection has nothing to do with evolution?
This seems quite an extreme position...

Dan
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!00acearl
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: We Are Holier and Smarter...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 15:23:11 GMT
Lines: 13

With regards to the article, "Scientists Think...  ," I would like to echo the
author's disgust over the issue of scientific inquiry versus mythical (yes, I
said MYTHICAL) interpretation.  It is possible for me to go into a lengthy
philosophical discussion concerning the exact nature of scientific "truth" and
I would be more than happy to indulge anyone who wishes to read such a thing
but, right now, I'll simply settle for an appeal to our sense of reason...

I've come to enjoy science verrryyyyyy much and would like to get on with
enjoying it further.  So, paraphrasing yet another gentleman, let's be holier
than them and not even admit this sort of discussion into this forum.  After
all, WE know what we're talking about.

                                      Enthusiastc
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!frmop11!trearn!trmetu!e66380
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Hi There
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 19:34:54 GMT
Organization: Middle East Technical University - Computer Center
Lines: 11


        First of all this is not a test message or a joke.  I really ask to
   everyone over there that:'Is there anybody who believs that he or she
   does not belong to this world?'.  I mean that :'Does anyone of you think
   that he or she is an alien?'.  If you e-mail me at E66380@TRMETUBITNET,
   I will be very glad.......Hope to hear from all of you.....



                                Remark:this is really a serious message so
                                please do not post test messages......
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa440
From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: test
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 21:06:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 10
Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] (Hakan Kayal) says:

>
>This is a simple Test for me. Ignore it!
>

Thank goodness it was only a test.  I got worried for a
minute.  The TEST has been ignored.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa440
From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hi There
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 21:15:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 39
Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:

>        First of all this is not a test message or a joke.  I really ask to
>   everyone over there that:'Is there anybody who believs that he or she
>   does not belong to this world?'.  I mean that :'Does anyone of you think
>   that he or she is an alien?'.  If you e-mail me at E66380@TRMETUBITNET,
>   I will be very glad.......Hope to hear from all of you.....
>
>
>
>                                Remark:this is really a serious message so
>                                please do not post test messages......
>

You know, if you were to send your proposal to FUFOR (Fund
for UFO Research) you could probably get a grant up upwards
of $1,000 or more to pursue this.

Want the address?

Being the Co-SySop of the Cleveland UFOlogy Sig, I am
never amazed at the things that come across the board.  It is
also amazing the amount of posts that I get that people send to
me telling of strange and bizarre tales dealing in the
subject uf UFOs.

I have yet, and I have investigated many reports, to
come up with any information that IS without doubt open to
criticism.  Why?  Because no one has tangible proof.  They have
a friend of a friend, or they know something, or they have
brought forward a fantastic hypothesis that they see as
fact, but which others can't verify.

I'll stay in this mess only because it is interesting.  But,
I look for the day that someone brings me in a piece of some-
thing, or even a being from another planet who can without
criticism show that this phenomena is real.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kathy and Channeling UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 23:02:08 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 30

Julian/Felix posts, "I'm out to do the exact opposite; to
substantiate her arguments/feelings through some sort of
dialogue..." etc.

Julian/Felix:  I am not concerned whether or not you can "substantiate"
my experiences.  In spiritual journeying, one must be concerned
about substantiating HIS OWN EXPERIENCE.  The whole point (as far
as I am concerned) is that it is not an exercise in "intellectual
life" (as you state).

As I have said before, it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to convince or
even attempt to "argue" one's one experience.  It is like trying to
explain to another what wine tastes like; unless you take your own
sip you will never really know what it tastes like.  And you certainly
won't know by me TRYING to explain to you what it tastes like?
Comprehendo?

As my Reiki teacher once told me, when she was in Japan her husband
broke his ankle...a Reiki master (Japanese man) came by and pointed
to her head and then to her heart.  Later she realized he was saying,
"you are too much in your head, you need to get into your heart".

My heart does not 'verbalize' a lot of my own direct experience.  But
then, maybe, if you would meditate with me, you would have YOUR OWN
DIRECT experience, and my words, my experience would NO LONGER MATTER.

BTW, you still have not answered:  what kind of name is Julian/Felix?
Are you two people over there?

Kathy